[The Archivist]

Awhile back I ran into these two quotes and began pondering the implications of them ... the direct tie between the Tanno and the NOs ... Anyway, was wondering if anyone runs across a good quote or any pages which I should read along this line ... please let me know ... again ... think this is an important sub plot ... thanks in advance.

Quotes:

'The Tanno cult claims a direct descent from the cult of the Nameless Ones. The Spiritwalkers say their powers, of song and the like, arose from the original patterns that the Nameless Ones fashioned in their rituals – those patterns supposedly crisscross this entire subcontinent, and their power remains to this day.' (HoC, UK Trade, p.396)


Trell shoulder-woman: 'Once, but no more...Cast out, cast down. In the time of the First Empire which was not, in truth, the first – for the T’lan Imass claimed that title long before. They were the left hand, another sect the right hand – both guiding, meant to be clasped. Instead, those who would come to be Unnamed, in their journeys into mysteries—’
She chopped with one hand, a gesture Mappo had not seen before among the tribe’s elders. A gesture, he realized with a start, of a Jhag...
‘Mysteries of another led them astray. They bowed to a new master. That is all there is to say.’
(DG, UK Trade, p.466)

[D'rek]

Well I think the second one needs more surrounding context added...

but basically I think it just shows that the Nameless Ones were a very, very dominant group/cult/thingamajig in the time of the FE. Their influence no doubt spread across the continent and even into the colonies. I'm sure they exercised their influence to make sure mundane things like roads, settlements, etc., were designed in accordance with their own Feng Shui (thus the patterns). The Tanno cult is probably like many other cults/groups/thingamajigs to claim direct descendency from the Nameless Ones and thereby gain some prestige...

[The Archivist]

Mappo is having his "old loyalties ritually riven from him." He asked the shoulder woman from his tribe to tell him more about the NOs.

"I must know more," he had whispered. More about these Nameless Ones, who would so demand this of me. Are they sworn to a God?" 'Once, but no more...Cast out, cast down. In the time of the First Empire which was not, in truth, the first – for the T’lan Imass claimed that title long before. They were the left hand, another sect the right hand – both guiding, meant to be clasped. Instead, those who would come to be Unnamed, in their journeys into mysteries—’
She chopped with one hand, a gesture Mappo had not seen before among the tribe’s elders. A gesture, he realized with a start, of a Jhag...
‘Mysteries of another led them astray. They bowed to a new master. That is all there is to say.’
(DG, UK Trade, p.466)

[D'rek]

Ah, ok. It is referencing how they changed from being a god-worshipping cult like most others to the Azath-worshippers they were by the end of the FE.

[Adjutant Stormy~]

The ramifications of the Tanno descent are not patently obvious. The Tanno could be the still-polytheistic sect, or one descended from the old OLD nameless ones, before they tossed their hat in with the Azath.

One might assume that this older path still retained a large amount of power, as the NO must have significantly changed gears (magically and politically) to Azath worship. Their rituals abandoned, the new NOs would have pressed on building their strength based on their new patrons. The old rituals would (per typical nameless one long-view-ad-nauseum style) certainly CERTAINLY have retained their efficacy (hehe channeling SE there) through the millenia.

So the Tanno have built upon these extant rituals. That seems logical. Whether organizationally descended, or simply using their original power, they may well claim descent, depending on the definition.

[The Archivist]

I seem to have been a bit abstruse here. I am looking for anyone who has spotted any more relevant posts on the Tanno Spiritwalker-Nameless One connection. I know there is a connection it is why I put the two quotes together. I am just hoping someone has spotted more on this confluence.

Thanks in advance,

[ShadowOwl]

In HoC, ppb page 794, Kalam is heading for Korbolo Dom and is in the old seabed,when he runs into an army of ghosts. They are talking about Dessimbelakis throwing more soldiers at them, and how they had destroyed five of the seven protectors and the sixth would not recover since they had driven off the black beast. And that the Nameless Ones confirmed that they had driven it from the realm. Kalam keeps hearing the 'song' throughout this discussion of the ghost army.
Then Kalam sees a tall gaunt figure in faded orange robes who says 'listen to them now, spirit from the future'. Kalam says to him, You, Tanno Spiritwalker....' and the figure says "Spiritwalker! is that the name I will aquire?"....Kalam says, "What do you mean priest?"
The figure says "I am no priest. I am Tanno, the Eleventh and last Seneschal of Yaraghatan, banished by the First Emperor for my treasonous alliance with the Nameless Ones. Did you know what he would do? Would any of us have guessed? Seven Protectors indeed, but far more than that.....

So I think that gives you the real connection plus more ideas on the connection between the 7 hounds of darkness and Dessimbelakis.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah that pretty much lays it on the line dont it? tanno the seneschal allied with the NO against dessi and the link persists till this day. you sir, deserve rep

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

I can just feel myself going into minus rep as I ask this... And I know this isn't the link the Archivist wasn't looking for... But "the cutting gesture of a Jhag?"

I'm more surprised of how widespread the Nameless Ones are at the moment, and how Icarium intent they are, if thats an inference to Iccy himself.

Even in its offshoot, on the Senior Assessor's island, they have kept Icarium in their "mysteries" as such.

I suppose the only other link I would tenuously say is there is that the Tanno Spiritwalkers power derives from song, tune only.... while the Nameless Ones deny the power in names - both suggesting that words limit power by shaping it I suppose... Which I reachingly suggest is a theme repeated elsewhere throughout the books.

Just remembered with mild irony when we meet Icarium in DHG he is masquerading as a Tanno Spiritwalker, I think, though Mappo comments the costume doesn't work at all. Given the links, hows that for fun

Shame I have no quotes though for the main thrust of the thread and its late so I shall just brace myself for the stun gun!

[The Archivist]

Yes, Shadow ... thanks and great work ... will add the quote to the forum when I find it .... and yes you deserve some rep.... *skips happily down the stacks humming*

[The Archivist]

Hmm ... more musing here but the Trell shoulder woman suggested that the Nameless Ones were part of a set of sects ... both guiding ... guiding what I wonder ... I am also interested in how often one desert city keeps coming up in the history. Almost always as a place of betrayal and of life altering epiphanies.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

On the Tanno descendancy from the N.O.'s, I'd lay a cusser to a cracker (hip new malazan lingo) that the Tannos were formed after a difference in doctrine. That's what usually happens. I suppose the N.O.'s got too power hungry and that upset the Tannos.

[Lisheo]

I think that one of the "hands" split of into the cult that worships Iccy, actually. They know so much about his movements, it strikes me as very odd. Also, they do worship him, which would count as them kneeling before a new master... The Nameless worship order, as such... They are the flip side of the Crippled God's coin, they are black to his white. He had Rhulad's sword, they had Iccy... Both weapons to be used, in different ways. They both manipulate their lesser servants, ie Veed and Rhulad himself.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

That is actually a distinct possibility. The Cabal monks are related to the Tanno's, who are related to the N.O.s, whom we know are already connected to the Cabalhii?

"sleuths"

[ShadowOwl]

To whomever neg repped me for the 'spirit walker' quote as you said, at least have the guts to say why and who you are. This forum is for discussion and to my mind, you are out of line.

*thanks guys! you rock!*:cool:

[Abyss]

I suppose the main point is that whatever the original form of the cult, it's (in that SE way we love so much) evolved over time.

We see elements of the cult working with or for the Azath, but there are contrdictions too, like Shadowthrone stating he had tried to wipe out the NO cult as Kellanved, but as ST cutting a deal with the Azath over Icarium and later over the Refugium. Like the fact that apparently Senechal Tanno wasn't an NO yet Tanno spiritwalkers are thought to be a spin off. Like the whole High Mage/Priest suicide to raise Dejim, yet Spite fncking off at the last minute. Or in NoK where we see

Spoiler

an Azath Guardian working at cross-purposes to the Nameless One Watchers

.

All of which is to say, a lot is possible but we really know very little.

- Abyss, figures if the cult had a branch in Mexico there would be a member called Nameless Juan...

[Dolorous Menhir]

Lisheo;310102 said:

I think that one of the "hands" split of into the cult that worships Iccy, actually. They know so much about his movements, it strikes me as very odd. Also, they do worship him, which would count as them kneeling before a new master... The Nameless worship order, as such... They are the flip side of the Crippled God's coin, they are black to his white. He had Rhulad's sword, they had Iccy... Both weapons to be used, in different ways. They both manipulate their lesser servants, ie Veed and Rhulad himself.

Brilliant. I always wondered who the mysterious "right hand" were to the Nameless Idiot's "left". It never occurred to me to consider Senior Assessor's people.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;315259 said:

Brilliant. I always wondered who the mysterious "right hand" were to the Nameless Idiot's "left". It never occurred to me to consider Senior Assessor's people.

Read the conversation that Senior Assessor had with Taralack Veed in Letheras - he mentions that he knows Veed was Nameless One, and hints that his own people have a distant connection with the NO's in the past. I'll get a quote when I unpack my books.

Not to mention who it is that Throatslitter really works for ... NO's, Talon, or someone else entirely?

[D'rek]

Kurt Montandon;315304 said:

Not to mention who it is that Throatslitter really works for ... NO's, Talon, or someone else entirely?

For lack of any evidence to the contrary, it would appear, insofar, that he'd just be a Talon.

First of all he's an assassin, so that automatically gives a high degree of likelihood towards either Talons or Claws (but he's not a Claw).

He began learning his assassin skills early in his life. He comes from Quon Tali. While I'm sure it's possible he's a NO or other thingamajig, Quon Tali being home to the Malazan nobility who are connected with parts of the Talon again lends credence to his Talon-age as it would be possible to connect with the Talons that way, despite his father not being Noble.

Though we can't be sure, he doesn't seem especially well-traveled. He was born in Quon Tali, he probably enlisted in Quon Tali and then shipped with the rest of the 14th's new recruits to Seven Cities. We know he was in the 14th at it's inception in Aren. He's a young guy, but there could still be some interesting stuff between him leaving home and joining the 14th.

In tBH he talks about how he likes killing Claws and also displays knowledge of how they organize their Hands and their usual methods (ring-leading the mob, etc.) This is definitely the kind of things Talons would be teaching their recruits.

That's all I can think of for now, but you can see my point. Though we don't know for sure that Throatslitter is a Talon, it seems much likelier then anything else so far.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

IIRC he's also seen thinking about how "most of us" were taken out, but a few survived, which would also fit with the Talon thing.