[Ain't_It_Just_]

Thelomen Toblerone;315396 said:

IIRC he's also seen thinking about how "most of us" were taken out, but a few survived, which would also fit with the Talon thing.

Yes, he speaks of "a group of old men and women who taught him skills", I believe....

[OtataralDragon]

Hellian said:

I can just feel myself going into minus rep as I ask this... And I know this isn't the link the Archivist wasn't looking for... But "the cutting gesture of a Jhag?"

I found it interesting that Mappo would recognize it as a Jhag gesture. How many Jhag did he know at the time? Are there so many of them around that everyone recognizes their body language on sight? For that matter, do Jhag have a specific set of gestures? I'm sure Jaghut do, but if a Jhag is any half-breed Jaghut, regardless of what the other half is, then there should be a wide variety of different types of body language inherited from the other parent...

Or, you know, maybe I'm just overthinking things as usual.

[Aptorian]

Well, I'm guessing there's a reason that it's called the Jhag Odhan. Once, maybe still, a bunch of Jhags may have lived in this area of Seven Cities.

[VampireGoat]

Sorry...maybe I missed something but what relevance does anything to do with Throatslitter have to this topic? hmm

As for Tanno and NO links. I don't think theres anything to be found their. The original tanno made an alliance a very very very long time ago which resulted in him being exiled. A lot of time has passed since then, the NO have changed in a large way and the tanno spirit walkers have gone from being one man to a group or organization.

Reviewing the facts I cant see how they've had much contact

There is confirmation that they are under no ways a part of the NO, at all ever. Mr Tanno worked with them once and thats it. Somewhere their history got mixed up they mistook themselves for actually being nameless ones but it, by the sound of it to me, has been so long since they met a REAL NO nobody has been able to correct their history screw up

either that or as someone else said, they're blagging to build rep

[Ammanas]

I've got IT! The Deragoth are the Hounds of the Nameless Ones. And that's why they chase the Hounds of Shadow--cuz they have NAMES! Only when they have wiped out the Hounds can anonymity be restored! Maybe a former ruler of Shadow managed to tempted seven of the Deragoth with names and status and Hound biscuits..

Somewhere there was a quote that indicated the Hounds were a thousand years old---maybe that just means they separated from the Deragoth a millenium ago.

-Ammanas, producing the craziest theories around.

Ok, that was my one and only Abyss sig imitation.

[D'rek]

Ammanas;317890 said:

Somewhere there was a quote that indicated the Hounds were a thousand years old---maybe that just means they separated from the Deragoth a millenium ago.

Cotillion in GotM, talking to Paran: "Do you realize that those precious creatures had lived for a thousand years?"
(chapter 23)

[Ayrin]

OtataralDragon;316724 said:

I found it interesting that Mappo would recognize it as a Jhag gesture. How many Jhag did he know at the time? Are there so many of them around that everyone recognizes their body language on sight? For that matter, do Jhag have a specific set of gestures? I'm sure Jaghut do, but if a Jhag is any half-breed Jaghut, regardless of what the other half is, then there should be a wide variety of different types of body language inherited from the other parent...

Doesn't Aramala (the Jaghut who upholds the Jhag Odhan) say something on the lines of "yes, Jhag are half Jaghut, but have you never thought about what the other half might be?" to Karsa?
So, Jhag don't seem to be Jaghut + whatever, but Jaghut + a specific other race (probably TTT).

[Jimmy]

ShadowOwl;311643 said:

To whomever neg repped me for the 'spirit walker' quote as you said, at least have the guts to say why and who you are. This forum is for discussion and to my mind, you are out of line.

There's some petty people on here, brother.

[OtataralDragon]

Ayrin;318074 said:

Doesn't Aramala (the Jaghut who upholds the Jhag Odhan) say something on the lines of "yes, Jhag are half Jaghut, but have you never thought about what the other half might be?" to Karsa?
So, Jhag don't seem to be Jaghut + whatever, but Jaghut + a specific other race (probably TTT).

As I remember it, she was referring to those specific Jhag when she said that. I think it was said somewhere else that regardless of what the other half is, any half-Jaghut is called a Jhag. I can't remember where, though, so I can't provide a quote to back it up. All I can find is Leoman talking about the Jhag Odhan.

Chapter 10, HoC, p 470 pb, Leoman and Karsa talking:

"Oh, there is some irony in this - there were once nomadic bands of Jaghut there. Hence the name. But these Jaghut were fallen. They had been predated on for so long they were little more than savages."

"And are they still there?"

"No. The Logros T'lan Imass slaughtered them. Not so long ago."

[Abyss]

Something interesting flows from this: it is said in DG that Kimloc, Tanno Spiritwalker that he is, was powerful enuf to wipe out whole armies. The Spiritwalers were also powerful enough to protect whole shiploads from Poliel's plague in TB.

From what we've seen, the Nameless Ones have nowhere near this level of power. Just to free Dejim eleven High Mages/Priests had to give up their own lives, and we've mostly seen them being ineffective of having to be extremely circumspect elsewhere. Kellanved claims to have wiped them out (obviously not, but if the paranoid former Emporer thinks so, he obviously killed a lot of them at least).

So perhaps the NOs have tremendous power but are happy to sacrifice their own to keep it under wraps, or the cult has been surpassed by its own spin-off.


As for the Jhag topic, i've wondered that same thing - because they seem to be referred to almost as a race in their own right - but it does appear that at least historically there were a lot of them running around.

- Abyss, could be said to wonder about jhag racing...

[Ammanas]

Abyss;318435 said:

From what we've seen, the Nameless Ones have nowhere near this level of power. Just to free Dejim eleven High Mages/Priests had to give up their own lives, and we've mostly seen them being ineffective of having to be extremely circumspect elsewhere. Kellanved claims to have wiped them out (obviously not, but if the paranoid former Emporer thinks so, he obviously killed a lot of them at least).

- Abyss, could be said to wonder about jhag racing...

They weren't required to die to free Dejim, Spite betrayed them. Or maybe all 12 had agreed to a suicide pact and Spite got smart. You could argue her "requirement" that Dejim kill the eleven was needless, he would have done so anyway immediately after regaining his freedom since he needs blood to survive.

[Aptorian]

A said:

Cotillion in GotM, talking to Paran: "Do you realize that those precious creatures had lived for a thousand years?"
(chapter 23)

This is of course a GotMism, don't put too much stock in it. Unless of course Cotillion was implying that there's generations of Hounds...

As for the NOs that free'd Dejim. They were saying their last prayers just as Dejim was free'd so they did indeed plan on dying. Most likely they sacrificed themselves to ensure that Dejim got a lot of fresh and powerfull blood upon his release to ensure that he would succeed.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Abyss;318435 said:

Something interesting flows from this: it is said in DG that Kimloc, Tanno Spiritwalker that he is, was powerful enuf to wipe out whole armies. The Spiritwalers were also powerful enough to protect whole shiploads from Poliel's plague in TB.

From what we've seen, the Nameless Ones have nowhere near this level of power. Just to free Dejim eleven High Mages/Priests had to give up their own lives, and we've mostly seen them being ineffective of having to be extremely circumspect elsewhere. Kellanved claims to have wiped them out (obviously not, but if the paranoid former Emporer thinks so, he obviously killed a lot of them at least).

So perhaps the NOs have tremendous power but are happy to sacrifice their own to keep it under wraps, or the cult has been surpassed by its own spin-off.


As for the Jhag topic, i've wondered that same thing - because they seem to be referred to almost as a race in their own right - but it does appear that at least historically there were a lot of them running around.

- Abyss, could be said to wonder about jhag racing...

I smell a "power of good and justice" theme in this....

[Lisheo]

Bear in mind what the Nameless Ones were doing (or more correctly, undoing): The rituals created by someone who had the power to CONTROL the Hounds of Shadow. Not just any old fellow. Also, Tanno songs dont seem to fit into the bracket of warren magic, instead they seem to be spirit magic, which seems to be slightly less restricted than warrens. With warrens, there is always a price to pay, it seems.

[The Archivist]

I thought a bit of a summing up so far might help us all to focus on reaching a bit of consensus. First, we are mainly agreed that the Tanno and the NOs are distantly related. Second, they seem to be diametrical opposites in terms of the NOs are focused on limiting power (a'la the Azath) and the Tanno seem to have the power to grant ascendancy. Three, the Tanno seem to be the more "good" of the two. Fourth, the NOs had a counter part in the FE but it remains unknown who this other "hand" was; one of the best possibilities seems to be the Senior Assessor's group. Finally, the Tanno are seemingly linked to ritual (spirit) magic which seems outside of both the Holds and the Warrens while the NOs are definitely tied to Warren magic.

Unanswered questions:

Who is the other "hand?"
What was the function of the Nameless Ones in the FE?



Ponderings: (Note more to come)
I find it interesting that the Tanno are linked to song (sound) and the NOs to stealth (lack there of). I, also, find it interesting that the Talon/Claw dichotomy is repeated in the two "hands of the FE."

[Lisheo]

The functions of the Nameless Ones in FE? Just a guess, but I suspect they came into existence to clear up Dessimbelackis's many mistakes; Dejim Nebrahl, other Demons/beings he may heva released/made/bargained with, maybe even sealing the Deragoth in their statues. Perhaps the other "hand" assisted Dessimbelackis in his rituals and castings. One hand for creation and the giving of power(The Tanno), the other for destruction and the taking of power (The Nameless Ones). Just a wild theory tho.

[The Archivist]

Good points, Hetan. However, the Tanno can not be the other "hand" because they grew from one on the hands, the Nameless ones. Thus they can't be the other hand as they only existed after the NO's and their other hand.

However, the Cabalii might be the other hand, assessing who was ready for ascendancy and then the (original) Nameless Ones would aid them in this. I am guessing the Tanno are following the NO's original function of aiding ascension not balancing power (note: corrupted by the Azath). The First Human Empire seems to have been obsessed with the rituals of ascendancy (Ritual of the Beast etc) so I think this may not be too far a stretch but it is still a WAG.

[SiriusL]

Lisheo;319707 said:

The functions of the Nameless Ones in FE? Just a guess, but I suspect they came into existence to clear up Dessimbelackis's many mistakes; Dejim Nebrahl, other Demons/beings he may heva released/made/bargained with, maybe even sealing the Deragoth in their statues.

Something occurred to me as I read your post, Lisheo.

Who originally sealed Dejim up after he was captured? Was it Dessimbelackis? Why didn't his original captor(s) throw him in an Azath? Surely if an Azath is good enough to hold Icarium, it can hold Dejim Nebrahl.

If it was Dessimbelackis, was he opposed to Azath, or was he wanting to keep Dejim around in case he was later needed?

If it was the NOs, were they also keeping Dejim around, or was this prior to any Azath Houses existing near enough to the FE?