[cjd262e]

I know a lot of you guys have read this (he was actually suggested to me on this site). I just finished "The Darkness That Comes Before." Are you kidding me?!!! I thought this was oustanding. This is my kind of fantasy.

I thought the writing was excellent, and absolutely loved the depth of the story. Finding a strong story with excellent writing (Erikson, Martin) can actually be very difficult, in my opinion. Oftentimes, you get one or the other.

For me this had everything I love in a fantasy book... writer control of the English language, politics, action, war, very cool battles, deep character development, a couple of bad asses, bad guys who you're not sure if you love or hate, etc.

I did see a couple of people list this on the "Books everyone likes but I can't stand" thread, which after finishing, surprised me. But everyone has their own tastes. It was a bit tough to grasp in the beginning (similar to Erikson for me) but once it picked up, I couldn't put it down.

I'll let you know how the rest of the series goes for me, but after the first book, I would strongly suggest Bakker to anyone. I was really really pleased with this book.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 28 October 2008 - 09:07 AM

[caladanbrood]

There is a lot of posturing regarding Kelhus, particularly in the later two books which really pisses people off, I think.

I really enjoyed it too though

[paladin]

i think people acknowledge its much better than your average fantasy, but i think that people get pissed because it could have been so much more if it werent for certain characteristics of the story. very similar to wheel of time actually

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

My beef was that outside of Kelhus, most of the main characters in the first book weren't very interesting. IIRC there were a fair number of graphic scenes that were not needed for the continuation of the plot or character development - that is, parts of it smacked of shock value.

[sinag55]

Waiting for Dolorous Menhir to bash Bakker...

Loved this series too. I hope you enjoy the rest of the books. Can't wait for the Aspect-Emperor!

[Dolorous Menhir]

On cue - the second and third books are total drivel. They don't compare to the first.

That's not just my opinion, it's something the author acknowledges. He spent years writing The Darkness That Comes Before, and then he bashed out the rest of the series in a very short period. And it shows.

[Tif the Barber Boy]

Dolorous Menhir;299337 said:

On cue - the second and third books are total drivel. They don't compare to the first.

I guess these things are relative. I found the first book to be rather flawed, but really got into the second and third books.

[Morgoth]

I loved the series, though admittedly it has flaws, but so does every other fantasy book I've read

[cjd262e]

Gwynn ap Nudd;299281 said:

My beef was that outside of Kelhus, most of the main characters in the first book weren't very interesting.

For me, Kellhus was only the third most interesting. I though Cnaiur stole the show. I really liked his barbaric arrogance mixed with straight fear of Kellhus. Plus, I liked the visual image of the scars on his arm. I thought that was very cool.

I really liked Drusas Achamian. I liked the constant conflict with him wanting so bad to do the right thing, but also trying to do his job as a spy as effictively as possible. I also thought Proyas and Zin were interesting, (decent guys driven by religious zeal) and I liked the emporor trying to work every possible political angle, with Conphas not sure if he should kill him. I liked that, for once, the most brilliant of the military generals, (Conphas) wasn't an obvious good guy coming to save the day.

So anyway, for me I was very interested in most of the characters. One thing I will say, is that pretty much any female character in this was in one way or another a hooker... Esmenet, the emporor's mother, and Cnaiur's prize concubine. It made me kind of wonder if maybe Bakker's only relationships with women were paid for, lol.

I am a bit disheartened that the next two books may not be as good, but I can't wait to read them.

[Tattooed Hand]

That's what I couldn't get down with, the rank misogyny. Shrew, whore or doe eyed object of rape. It's fantasy, man, even if women are getting the short end of the stick in the world, their characters don't have to be stereotypes.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I hope you enjoy them more than I did. I wrote a few threads with criticisms, I'd like to see your responses once you've read the last two (loads of spoilers so definitely don't look at them just now).

[Optimus Prime]

Dolorous Menhir;299337 said:

On cue - the second and third books are total drivel. They don't compare to the first.

That's not just my opinion, it's something the author acknowledges. He spent years writing The Darkness That Comes Before, and then he bashed out the rest of the series in a very short period. And it shows.

Disagree. I thought book 2 was brilliant. As a whole, loved the series, but it needed a little less philosophical pondering and more action and meat to be on par with SE.

Can't wait for the next series. Bakker's writing is electric and it just sucks me in.

[No-God]

Dolorous Menhir;299337 said:

On cue - the second and third books are total drivel. They don't compare to the first.

That's not just my opinion, it's something the author acknowledges. He spent years writing The Darkness That Comes Before, and then he bashed out the rest of the series in a very short period. And it shows.

No, it isn't fact. Yes, he spent longer on book 1, but that doesn't guarantee that books 2 and 3 are any less in quality. In my opinion, The Warrior-Prophet is one of the single best books I've read. So yes, it is just your opinion. Don't try to pass that rubish off as fact.

The Prince of Nothing is, personally, my favorite finished series of books I've ever read. I love the dark, poetic prose and I love many of the characters. I enjoy the realism, and although it's heavily philosophical, it's also very emotional (I found the climax to Book 2 to be unbelievably powerful).

[caladanbrood]

I would agree that the first book is the best, but I enjoyed all three. Achamian and Cnaiur are at their best in the first book, and thats what makes it better than the other two, I think.

[Werthead]

Actually, I raised this point with Bakker himself (about the 20-years-for-Book 1 versus 1-year-for-Book 2 thing). Apparently he spend 20-odd years mapping out the plotline and general idea for the entire Second Apocalypse arc (all 8-9 books, though it was then a trilogy) but he only started actually writing The Darkness That Came Before in 2001 or thereabouts. It still took longer - 2 years for Book 1 versus 12 months for 2 and 3, but not that much longer.

[Dolorous Menhir]

No-God;299756 said:

No, it isn't fact. Yes, he spent longer on book 1, but that doesn't guarantee that books 2 and 3 are any less in quality. In my opinion, The Warrior-Prophet is one of the single best books I've read. So yes, it is just your opinion. Don't try to pass that rubish off as fact.

I don't want to get involved in another discussion about this, because the original poster hasn't read all three books yet and I've raised all these points before.

But I don't think I'm totally in the wrong here. There is a real decline in the quality of writing between the first and other books. You can quibble about the size of it, but. And I don't just mean in the storyline terms, I mean actual technical things. Like the repetition of stock phrases.

Werthead - Bakker says in the acknowledgments page of The Warrior Prince that he had 15 years to write the first book, but had to bash out the second in a year and found it much harder. That's what I was basing my comments on.

edit - that should be the Warrior-Prophet, not prince.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I've read the first two, but haven't gotten around to picking up the third yet. Is the drop-off in quality that bad? Is it worth it to continue with the series?

[Cnai?r]

I didn't perceive any drop off in quality, but then again, I'm a bit biased, what with an alt of mine appearing in the Acknowledgments page

But in all seriousness, it just depends on what one brings to the table. If one wants a neatly wrapped-up trilogy, that isn't going to happen, because that's not what the author aimed to do. If there are things that left you feeling unsettled, some of that is going to be because of the questions that Bakker wanted to address.

Shall be interesting to see the reaction to his NP when it comes out in the next month or so - I predict it'll be even more polarizing than any of the PoN novels.

[Optimus Prime]

DM you may have a point or two, but it isn't "fact" so don't try to pass it off as such. I thought the second book was the best of the three.

Opinions are not fact.

Love the series and can't wait for more. Bakker has a brilliant writing mind.

[Sir Thursday]

What I loved about TDtCb was how absorbing the conflicts between all the characters were. While not a whole lot of plot movement went on outside of the Cnaiur v Kellhus storyline, the politicking and clashes of wills were incredibly well written and gripping, and left me eagerly awaiting the action while hoping that the politicking would be carried over into the sequels. I have to say I'm in the camp who feel that TDtCb was superior to TWP and TTT simply because they didn't have the same gripping quality to them. Still enjoyed the series overall and am interested to see what happens next.

Sir Thursday