[Shinrei]

My apologies to those who enjoyed them,

I made it to page 86, and became so disgusted that I started skimming. And then I skipped whole chucks of pages. Everywhere I stopped I found drivel.

Sorry, this was the worst degeneration of a series since the wheel of time. And even in WOT it was only boredom, not hatred over what I was reading.

I believe there is a lesson to be found in these books, about the tyranny of men, but other than that there is nothing redeeming about this series.

I'm actually sitting here, with actual anger flaring, over this disappointing trash. If RSB walked into the room right this instant, I'd punch him in the face.

"Nothing Redeeming" is probably how I would best wrap up my assessment. I'm glad I'm not alone, and frankly have trouble seeing why this horsepiss series has any fans.

That is all. Angry, disappointed Shin is going off to bed.

This post has been edited by Shinrei no Shintai: 14 February 2009 - 02:57 PM

[RodeoRanch]

Tell us how you really feel, Shin.



On the plus side, at least you didn't buy multiple copies of the third book like I did. I did so because I'm a goof and forgot I had already purchased it before.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I thought it was an interesting series. Sure it had flaws, but everything does.

[HoosierDaddy]

I didn't finish the 3rd book. Maybe I need to try it again but... I didn't lose interest, I'm not exactly sure how to characterize my emotions when I began the 3rd, and that doesn't often happen to me in good fantasy series. I think I just got sick of Kelhus/Superman or the lack of strong characters outside of Kelhus. As soon as people meet Kelhus they are pussified. It's fairly annoying. If this changes, I'll finish book 3, so does it change?

[Dolorous Menhir]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 16 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

I didn't finish the 3rd book. Maybe I need to try it again but... I didn't lose interest, I'm not exactly sure how to characterize my emotions when I began the 3rd, and that doesn't often happen to me in good fantasy series. I think I just got sick of Kelhus/Superman or the lack of strong characters outside of Kelhus. As soon as people meet Kelhus they are pussified. It's fairly annoying. If this changes, I'll finish book 3, so does it change?

No.

[Werthead]

HoosierDaddy, on Feb 16 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

I didn't finish the 3rd book. Maybe I need to try it again but... I didn't lose interest, I'm not exactly sure how to characterize my emotions when I began the 3rd, and that doesn't often happen to me in good fantasy series. I think I just got sick of Kelhus/Superman or the lack of strong characters outside of Kelhus. As soon as people meet Kelhus they are pussified. It's fairly annoying. If this changes, I'll finish book 3, so does it change?

Yes.

Not in Book 3 though. In Book 4 it changes rather dramatically.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I rather think Achamian became unpussified at the end of book three. He grew some big balls

[lfex]

Yup, Achamian frees himself from Kellhus influence by the end of book three. In book four he is quite different character in this regard.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

OK so here are some of my thoughts on the series overall.

I can't actually put my finger on it, but I'm more or less obsessed by it. Not as much as MBotF, but still. But, to make matters interesting, i HATED Kellhus, I couldn't wait for TTT to end, and I found myself rooting for the Fanim and Conphas.

I despise the Holy War, I despise the Inrithi religious fanatics, I hate Gotian, I don't care about Proyas. I hate the uber-Kellhus and the fact that he can do ANYTHING HE WANTS, and that EVERYTHING GOES ACCORDING TO HIS PLANS.

Esmenet is pathetic, and the only lovable character is Akka. In fact, the last scene made the whole book a worthy reading

Now, I started reading Book 4 and i have to say

Spoiler

that I hate Kellhus even more. He turned from interesting psycho monk, to the Warrior-Prophet, to LIVING GOD, master of all, everyone, unbeatable in ANY FORM yada yada. I mean you get the feeling that Bakker himself is in love with him, as every scene involving him describes him as "bathed in gold, shining, too beautiful, bla bla..."

But as soon as the pussification of all characters Kellhus meets ends (

Spoiler

Akka, Conphas and Cnaiur in book 3, Sorweel, Esmenet, that matriarch-mother and that Zeumi Prince in Book 4

) I found it a delight to read.

All in all, I myself can't understand how can I love Bakker's writing sooo much, even though I hate so much aspects of it :S

[Cause]

I think Bakker has some awesome idea. His magic systems the gnosis,the anogogic and apporatic schools of magic are simplt brilliant. He knows excactly how they work. His description of his mages battling are beautifull. Chorae which I once thought were retarded have grown on me to the point that I think they are a perfect idea. They put mages in their place and yet still dont offer their wearers any real protection. kellhus and the dunyain also are clever. When Kellhus wokrs on the trapper who rescues him in the beggining and Bakker actually explains how his 'powers' work it was some fantastic writing. The problem I feel come when bakker stopped justifying Kellhus powers. He simply knew everything and his probability trance become the power to basically see the future. Still Im not annoyed bu Uber kellhus as some people are, the magic system is the best I have ever seen and I very much like the way he handles battles.

Thought the last in book four was a major dissapointment for me

[uk_unbeliever]

Cause, on Feb 21 2009, 08:41 AM, said:

I think Bakker has some awesome idea. His magic systems the gnosis,the anogogic and apporatic schools of magic are simplt brilliant. He knows excactly how they work. His description of his mages battling are beautifull. Chorae which I once thought were retarded have grown on me to the point that I think they are a perfect idea. They put mages in their place and yet still dont offer their wearers any real protection. kellhus and the dunyain also are clever. When Kellhus wokrs on the trapper who rescues him in the beggining and Bakker actually explains how his 'powers' work it was some fantastic writing. The problem I feel come when bakker stopped justifying Kellhus powers. He simply knew everything and his probability trance become the power to basically see the future. Still Im not annoyed bu Uber kellhus as some people are, the magic system is the best I have ever seen and I very much like the way he handles battles.

Thought the last in book four was a major dissapointment for me

I agree about the magic systems.

I don't know what else needs explaining about his powers though- he has the awesome dunyain training / meditative power / control, he has the gnosis (he seems to be able to employ more than Achamium taught him- I’m thinking that applying his Dunyain skills to his knowledge gained from Akka, over 20 years, this could be expected) and more than anything people believe he's a god- throw in his Dunyain insight and ability to 'read' people, fly around a bit and light yourself up with some subtle gnosis shiny-shiny- perfect! Who wouldn't think him a god? He's got everything to maintain this.

This is why I never hated Kellhus like so many seem to- I don't think he sees himself as a god, he knows what he is and he gets what he wants through playing everyone around him.

What is really intriguing for me is that I hope we'll find out what it is that he really wants!
Why is he really looking to battle the consult?
Does he really care about humanity? Nothing so far makes me believe that- does he see the consult as a threat? Unless I missed something and Dunyain live a lot longer than other men, or maybe he aims for immortality somehow, then surely he'll be dead (or likely killed by his lovely offspring in a rather ironic mirror of his own story!) or past his best by the time the no-god rises. He doesn't need to war against them when so far he seems able to pick out any of their assassins easily- so it cant be just that he wants the consult gone because they're trying to get rid of him.
Can it simply be because he wants the world 'safe' so his offspring can rule it? He seems mad on making sure he has lineage, but so far this feels different from what we've read about the Dunyain in general breeding for excellence- his line has broken away from the 'breeding in solitude for the purpose of improving the race' type approach.

[Aptorian]

Well, we heard that unlike "normal humans" the dunuyan are able to sing the gnosis in two or even three voices at once. Which I believe was said to not only be impossible but it would make him something close to a god for some reason. On top of that he has an understanding of the science that no other posses. So, yeah, he's pretty freaking powerfull.

I believe that after his cruxifiction he was haunted by the memory of the No-God and he became convinced that he had to save humanity, or just his future empire, from that threat.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

That's the thing that's been bugging me. I mean, Moenghus clearly thinks Kellhus is mad. He sad something like "The trial broke you" And when he said to Kellhus that he is just a Dunyain, Kel stabbed him and said "No, I'm more"

So I'm beginning to think that he REALLY began to think himself as the Warrior-Prophet, Son of heavens, after the Circumfix. I'm still not sure, but that's a SCAAARY thought. And that would've explain his obsession with the war against the Consult.

[Cause]

Well more and more, especially in the judging eye, as the series goes on bakker seems to be coming out and straight saying it, The gods are real, the outside is real.

@Unbeliever Im not concerned about his super magic. He can sing sorcery with one utteral and two innuterals. Hes the most powerfull mage who ever lived and it works as far as the system is concerned. He has been bred for motor reflexes for 2000 years and trained in martial arts and to see the possibilities a fight may take and so dominate. He can read emotion through peoples expression even when hey try and hide it. Great. Science seems to suggest this should be true to a point. However how does he know esmenet sold her daughter into slavery and that her daughter is not dead like she claims. If she is lying the possibilites ange from she murdered her to she ran away. But he KNOWS absolutly she sold him

Spoiler

Im actually very aware that throughout the judging eye that we are not allowed a glimpse of Kellhus thoughts throughout the book. Truth is I cant escape the idea that he has programmed his son to obsess over esmenet, to act as he does. Maithenet even says at one point Kellhus has left her the house he wants her to have. Meaning her grip on power, the enemies the factions are all as he anted.

[Cougar]

Cause, on Feb 22 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

However how does he know esmenet sold her daughter into slavery and that her daughter is not dead like she claims. If she is lying the possibilites ange from she murdered her to she ran away. But he KNOWS absolutly she sold him

Dude you should watch Derren Brown, if you see the shit he can tell people about themselves by their reactions and twitches then you'd believe what Kellhus does is very possible.

This post has been edited by Cougar: 23 February 2009 - 10:14 AM

[uk_unbeliever]

Cougar, on Feb 23 2009, 10:13 AM, said:

Cause, on Feb 22 2009, 07:35 PM, said:

However how does he know esmenet sold her daughter into slavery and that her daughter is not dead like she claims. If she is lying the possibilites ange from she murdered her to she ran away. But he KNOWS absolutly she sold him

Dude you should watch Derren Brown, if you see the shit he can tell people about themselves by their reactions and twitches then you'd believe what Kellhus does is very possible.

Yeh- if he can 'read' people to the extent he can he coudl've worked this out fairly soon.

Spoiler

I still don't believe that Kellhus believes he's a god. I hope that there is some kind of twist to it

I agree about Bakker leading us down the path of Gods exist- actually, when I started reading this I REALLY liked it, it had a feel like the Malazan Gods- maybe we'll see somthing similar- gods actually getting involved? we've already seen it via a proxy (yatwer). Also, we get to see Bashrag and proof of dragons. The world feels 'wider'. A think Bakker is going to up the ante in the next book- take this second series further into the magical / superpowers (Gods / dragons / nonmen... whatever) and give it a real magical fantasy feel- the kind of stuff that really sells! but hopefully maintain the ruthlessness in terms of character development and the generally gritty approach

Also- I love the way the scalpers call sranc 'skinnies'

[The Tyrant Lizard]

My nose was put out a bit by Moengus's lack of ability to read situations. He made a huge error in trying to master the Pshuki or whatever you call it, and then failed to read Kellhus's intentions. For someone who was built up to be such a bad boy (look what ive done in a year... what has he achieved in thirty?) I found him a bit of an anti climax.

I was also a bit puzzled by the Jesusesque rebirth. There was something going on with a heart was there not? Was Kellhus using sleight of hand there?

Loved the trilogy. Im close to finishing TJE and finding it rivetting.