[Optimus Prime]

I can see the stronger points of the first book. I just loved how Kellhus "came into his own" in the second novel. That and just how all the political drama continued to deepen and the conflicts just seemed about to explode at any moment had me on the edge of my seat.

[Mentalist]

While I strongly disliked just about everything about Kellhus, I still liked the series. I had serious issues getting with the pacing, but the world-buildoing and moral ambiguity (two things that are a must in a novel to be judged "good" by me) was all there, and I found myself enjoying the books a fair bit (and reading the glossary at the end of book 3 blew me away, in a good way )

[Optimus Prime]

Bakker's world building is insane. That glossary was almost like a 4th book!

[cjd262e]

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to book two. I just started it tonight.

[Optimus Prime]

cjd262e;299958 said:

God you guys are cool. I love that I can post that I liked a book, and get 20 responses in the contrary/affirmative. It's cool that very smart guys can have such different opinions on the same piece of work.

edit: please disregard my verbal lovemaking... that was after 10 (or so) whiskeys.

*inches away slowly*

Yeah...dude...you're cool also.... :eek:

We usually can muster good conversation....but sometimes we end up derailing a thread and shennanigans ensue....

Spoiler

I can't wait to see what Achamian is like after the events of the first series...

[cjd262e]

haha, I deleted that post, and you quoted me.

[Optimus Prime]

cjd262e;299964 said:

haha, I deleted that post, and you quoted me.

This isn't my first time at the rodeo

Welcome to the forums. There are usually enough varied opinions here to stir good conversation.

I'm interested to see if Zeum comes into play in Bakker's world....

[Mentalist]

You and me both
As far as i can remember, they are the descendants of the last of the original tribes, no?
Also, I want to see Non-Men. A lot more of them.

[Darkwatch]

I don't quite understand what going on with the Non-men

Spoiler

We're told that they're the sworn ennemies of the Inchoroi, but we regularly see Non-Men taking orders obiendiently from Inchoroi throughout the books. What's more is that the synthese at one point mentions they have a spy at Insterbinth, but why do they need a spy? Almost all the Non-men we encounter are under Consult control, apart from that one that Kellhus runs into.

[Optimus Prime]

Darkwatch;300000 said:

I don't quite understand what going on with the Non-men

Spoiler

We're told that they're the sworn ennemies of the Inchoroi, but we regularly see Non-Men taking orders obiendiently from Inchoroi throughout the books. What's more is that the synthese at one point mentions they have a spy at Insterbinth, but why do they need a spy? Almost all the Non-men we encounter are under Consult control, apart from that one that Kellhus runs into.

@DW

Spoiler

I'm thinking some are under control and others are not. Perhaps the Non-men under the Consul control are the ones who have given up fighting them or have been driven insane....but you're right...I want to know what the deal is. Weren't the Non-Men and Men also once at war if I recall correctly?

[Darkwatch]

Xander;300004 said:

@DW

Spoiler

I'm thinking some are under control and others are not. Perhaps the Non-men under the Consul control are the ones who have given up fighting them or have been driven insane....but you're right...I want to know what the deal is. Weren't the Non-Men and Men also once at war if I recall correctly?

Spoiler

Yes they were when Men invade Earwa. But that was seen as a transient war, two species of the same planet only fighting out of territorial issues. The wars (with an S) between the Inchoroi and the Non-Men were vicious. The Inchoroi are aliens who desire nothing but to annihilate everything that lives, for motives I won't even reveal here since it's an incredibly huge spoiler, and as such they would never actualy attempt to stop trying to kill the non-men. This is compounded by the fact that the Inchoroi steralised the Non-men, though they also made them incredibly long lived. It became a war of pure hate, when the Inchoroi killed of all the women, one that lead to the final Non-men crusade on Golgoterrah which caused the place's entombment with the remaining Inchoroi inside.
By the time Men arrived the Non-men were exhausted, and Men were only interested in land to live on than actually wiping out the Non-men. This is attested by the fact that after the wars the Non-Men instructed Men in the ways of Gnostic sorcery which gave birth to the mighty Northern Kingdoms and their abstract sorcery.

[Optimus Prime]

Darkwatch;300006 said:

Spoiler

Yes they were when Men invade Earwa. But that was seen as a transient war, two species of the same planet only fighting out of territorial issues. The wars (with an S) between the Inchoroi and the Non-Men were vicious. The Inchoroi are aliens who desire nothing but to annihilate everything that lives, for motives I won't even reveal here since it's an incredibly huge spoiler, and as such they would never actualy attempt to stop trying to kill the non-men. This is compounded by the fact that the Inchoroi steralised the Non-men, though they also made them incredibly long lived. It became a war of pure hate, when the Inchoroi killed of all the women, one that lead to the final Non-men crusade on Golgoterrah which caused the place's entombment with the remaining Inchoroi inside.
By the time Men arrived the Non-men were exhausted, and Men were only interested in land to live on than actually wiping out the Non-men. This is attested by the fact that after the wars the Non-Men instructed Men in the ways of Gnostic sorcery which gave birth to the mighty Northern Kingdoms and their abstract sorcery.

Great summation.

Spoiler

The Inchoroi's war with the Non-Men was clearly on a deeper level than the Non-Men versus the Men. As you say, the Non-Men/Men conflict was more territorial. It really was pure hate with the Consul. A fundamental difference that could never be assuaged. It's either rogue Non-Men allied with the Inchoroi or some sort of control via parasitic control

[No-God]

Dolorous Menhir;299849 said:

I don't want to get involved in another discussion about this, because the original poster hasn't read all three books yet and I've raised all these points before.

But I don't think I'm totally in the wrong here. There is a real decline in the quality of writing between the first and other books. You can quibble about the size of it, but. And I don't just mean in the storyline terms, I mean actual technical things. Like the repetition of stock phrases.

Werthead - Bakker says in the acknowledgments page of The Warrior Prince that he had 15 years to write the first book, but had to bash out the second in a year and found it much harder. That's what I was basing my comments on.

edit - that should be the Warrior-Prophet, not prince.

I'm not discussing this again, but I disagree that the first book is of higher quality. It may be of higher quality than the third book, I'll give you that. But I found book 2 almost flawless. You are right that he spent longer writing the Darkness That Comes Before, but making the leap and the gross assumption that time = quality is a bit silly. So yes, you are wrong making your assumption. It's your opinion that the first is the best one, but to imply it's fact is just stupid.

[Nevuk]

I just read the first two books of this series, and the second seriously made me hate Kelhus. This is likely to do with my personal stances on most of the philosophies he represents, but even more than this he struck me as a character who was written to have no flaws. And the quasi-religious treatment his act gets towards the end of book two is downright sickening.

Spoiler

Not referring to the cult like status he acquires, but to the whacked out torture he goes through with Seswe. And how it drags on... and on.... forever. It was as if the author wanted to make it worse than what Achamian had gone through, with how the only one of them getting pitied at the end was Kelhus.

I found Achamian and Cnauir to be the only two likable characters by the end of book two. Cnauir's opinions concerning Kelhus I thought were totally accurate, but I've never cared for manipulators, especially ones written to have no flaws. I'm not sure if I even feel like reading the third, I have better books lined up to read anyways.

[caladanbrood]

What I really like about Bakker is the summaries of "What came before" at the beginning of each new book. I wish a lot more epic fantasy authors did that, especially when you've waited a year or so for their latest book!

[Optimus Prime]

caladanbrood;300137 said:

What I really like about Bakker is the summaries of "What came before" at the beginning of each new book. I wish a lot more epic fantasy authors did that, especially when you've waited a year or so for their latest book!

I love that. Bakker wanted you involved.

The depth of the world-building is reminiscent of Tolkien. I understood a lot of things so much more after the glossaries.

[Werthead]

caladanbrood;300137 said:

What I really like about Bakker is the summaries of "What came before" at the beginning of each new book. I wish a lot more epic fantasy authors did that, especially when you've waited a year or so for their latest book!

I can see that not working as well for some authors:

Quote

DUST OF DREAMS

The Story So Far

Eight hundred thousand years ago...y'know, on second thoughts, just go re-read the books, it'll actually be quicker.

Also, I felt that That Darkness That Came Before, whilst excellent, had rather too little plot-advancement and rather too much setting-things-up, and felt a little slow. The Warrior-Prophet was a massive step forward in quality and pacing, and is my favourite book of the series. The Thousandfold Thought is good but doesn't really have an ending (it's rather pushing it to be marketing it as a self-contained trilogy, actually) and the ending it does have trips the reader up as it comes like halfway through the book, thanks to that insanely huge (although still quite good) appendix. Having the appendix to Book 3 to hand when you're reading Books 1-2 is a massive boon as well.

[No-God]

Werthead;300227 said:

Also, I felt that That Darkness That Came Before, whilst excellent, had rather too little plot-advancement and rather too much setting-things-up, and felt a little slow. The Warrior-Prophet was a massive step forward in quality and pacing, and is my favourite book of the series. The Thousandfold Thought is good but doesn't really have an ending (it's rather pushing it to be marketing it as a self-contained trilogy, actually) and the ending it does have trips the reader up as it comes like halfway through the book, thanks to that insanely huge (although still quite good) appendix. Having the appendix to Book 3 to hand when you're reading Books 1-2 is a massive boon as well.

Agreed on all accounts.

I feel The Darkness That Comes Before was just a setup book that introduces all of the characters and the world to the readers. The plot doesn't really "start" until The Warrior-Prophet.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the need for a massive appendix to actually explain a huge part of what's going on is a weakness, not a strength.

Do we not praise SE for his style of slowly revealing the essential information during the narrative? That's the polar opposite of Bakker's "explain nothing and stick an encyclopedia at the end" approach, and I know which one I prefer.

[Optimus Prime]

Dolorous Menhir;300318 said:

I think the need for a massive appendix to actually explain a huge part of what's going on is a weakness, not a strength.

Do we not praise SE for his style of slowly revealing the essential information during the narrative? That's the polar opposite of Bakker's "explain nothing and stick an encyclopedia at the end" approach, and I know which one I prefer.

That's just the way you see it. I love Bakker's style. The glossary helps but before I had it I still enjoyed the books.