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After re-reading bonehunters and reaper's gale I have noticed that most of the elder gods appear to have their own races ( as in not human worshipers but an entirely seperate race from each other ) e.g....
The errant - The forkul assail
Kilmandros - Theloman Toblaki
Togg and Fandery - Ay and or the Imass
Rake, Nightchill and MD - Tiste andii
Fl and Osserc - Tiste Liosan
Tiam, Draconus and possibly Ruin (Wyval) - Dragons
Scabandari, three sisters and possibly edur royal line - Tiste edur
Grizzin farl - K'Chain Che'Malle? or do they worship dragon gods?
Mael - ?
The Eres - The Eres'al
Is there some reason for this, do all the elder gods have races that follow them and them alone? or is it to do with the warrens?
Elder god races
#2
Nameless Dhenrabi 
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:32 PM
Interesting thread...just a few humble clarifications I would like to point out.
The Errant I've always thought of as a human-aspected god, and Kilmandaros as a Forkrul Assail-type. First, in the prologue, she is described as being very FA looking (extra joints, pale skin, powerful melee combatant), just bigger and meaner. Also, later on in the book, she is in an Azath house with one of her children, unmistakably a Forkrul Assail (btw, is this FA she's there with Sechul Lath?)
I don't think it's really been stated explicitly that she is the mother of the Forkrul Assail, so it's entirely possible that she is the mother of the TTT.
Togg and Fanderay are definetly beast-aspected. Also, I don't think the Ay part of FanderAY is there by mistake. I can definetly see them being the progenetors of the Ay and lesser wolves.
As for the Tiste Andii, MD is definetly aspected towards them. Anomander is merely her son, and is not an Elder God. He is not even a god in the definition of a god that SE has given us, but a very powerful Soletaken ascendant.
Nightchill, I think is aspected differently than pure darkness. She is the Sister of Cold Nights. I can't really picture her place in the whole pantheon...maybe she is the Elder Goddess of Night? of Cold?...hard to say. But she doesn't really seem to have any particular relationship to the Tiste Andii that I can remember.
I agree with you about Osserc. Who is Fl?
Tiam is the mother of dragons and as far as I know, she is dead. (Who killed her, anyway?) Draconus' name definetly is a hint towards his aspect, but I don't think that was been stated explicitely, either.
Silchas Ruin, is also the Soletaken son of MD, so while he has dragon blood, I don't think he really has any "godiness".
Scabarandi, and the three sisters I think are gods due to worship by the Tiste Edur, but they don't seem to be Elder. Also, it's hard to tell what's going on with ol' Scabs, he could be insane or a shell of his formal self for all we know.
We don't know anything really about Grizzen Farl, unfortunately, and also know almost nothing about the KCCM religion, if they even had one.
I bet Mael is from some race on another world, he ascended to godhood there and declined to procreate on Burn.
Here are the Elder Gods (as far as I can remember off the top of my head):
Mael (sea, Stormriders, possibly?)
Ardata (webs, spiders? possibly the goddess of whatever webs symbolize)
Kilmandaros (FA?)
Tiam (dragons)
Mother Dark
Father Light
Draconus
K'rul (magic, warrens)
Sister of Cold Nights (nighttime, stars, cold, emptyness?)
Sechul Lath (?)
Grizzin Farl (?)
Togg & Fanderay (Beasts)
The Errant (holds)
Eres'al (Tlan Imass, Human, Barghast, Trell progenitor)
The Jaghut, KCCM, and TTT don't seem to have any Elder God aspected towards them that I can recollect.
Any others I forgot?
The Errant I've always thought of as a human-aspected god, and Kilmandaros as a Forkrul Assail-type. First, in the prologue, she is described as being very FA looking (extra joints, pale skin, powerful melee combatant), just bigger and meaner. Also, later on in the book, she is in an Azath house with one of her children, unmistakably a Forkrul Assail (btw, is this FA she's there with Sechul Lath?)
I don't think it's really been stated explicitly that she is the mother of the Forkrul Assail, so it's entirely possible that she is the mother of the TTT.
Togg and Fanderay are definetly beast-aspected. Also, I don't think the Ay part of FanderAY is there by mistake. I can definetly see them being the progenetors of the Ay and lesser wolves.
As for the Tiste Andii, MD is definetly aspected towards them. Anomander is merely her son, and is not an Elder God. He is not even a god in the definition of a god that SE has given us, but a very powerful Soletaken ascendant.
Nightchill, I think is aspected differently than pure darkness. She is the Sister of Cold Nights. I can't really picture her place in the whole pantheon...maybe she is the Elder Goddess of Night? of Cold?...hard to say. But she doesn't really seem to have any particular relationship to the Tiste Andii that I can remember.
I agree with you about Osserc. Who is Fl?
Tiam is the mother of dragons and as far as I know, she is dead. (Who killed her, anyway?) Draconus' name definetly is a hint towards his aspect, but I don't think that was been stated explicitely, either.
Silchas Ruin, is also the Soletaken son of MD, so while he has dragon blood, I don't think he really has any "godiness".
Scabarandi, and the three sisters I think are gods due to worship by the Tiste Edur, but they don't seem to be Elder. Also, it's hard to tell what's going on with ol' Scabs, he could be insane or a shell of his formal self for all we know.
We don't know anything really about Grizzen Farl, unfortunately, and also know almost nothing about the KCCM religion, if they even had one.
I bet Mael is from some race on another world, he ascended to godhood there and declined to procreate on Burn.
Here are the Elder Gods (as far as I can remember off the top of my head):
Mael (sea, Stormriders, possibly?)
Ardata (webs, spiders? possibly the goddess of whatever webs symbolize)
Kilmandaros (FA?)
Tiam (dragons)
Mother Dark
Father Light
Draconus
K'rul (magic, warrens)
Sister of Cold Nights (nighttime, stars, cold, emptyness?)
Sechul Lath (?)
Grizzin Farl (?)
Togg & Fanderay (Beasts)
The Errant (holds)
Eres'al (Tlan Imass, Human, Barghast, Trell progenitor)
The Jaghut, KCCM, and TTT don't seem to have any Elder God aspected towards them that I can recollect.
Any others I forgot?
#3
Tarr
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:08 PM
One Ardata is not an elder god in the way we think off them (she probably ascended during Kallors Empire) FL Father Light Jeez...
Kilmandaros could indeed be the god of the FA but I think that the errant trying to save the FA is an indication plus was it not stated somewhere?
There was a shrine to Grizzin Farl on one of the floating fortresses and Draconus and sister of cold nights (SoCN) do not count they symbolise the heart of Krul.
Icarium is the son "of that old hag" and gothos so I assumed it was kilmandaros, as for rake, osserc (if not FL) and Ruin I do think they do count as they have not ascended (so not ascendants) and they use elder, in actual fact rake and ruin seem to have taken over for SoCN and Draconus as guardians of the heart.
Kilmandaros could indeed be the god of the FA but I think that the errant trying to save the FA is an indication plus was it not stated somewhere?
There was a shrine to Grizzin Farl on one of the floating fortresses and Draconus and sister of cold nights (SoCN) do not count they symbolise the heart of Krul.
Icarium is the son "of that old hag" and gothos so I assumed it was kilmandaros, as for rake, osserc (if not FL) and Ruin I do think they do count as they have not ascended (so not ascendants) and they use elder, in actual fact rake and ruin seem to have taken over for SoCN and Draconus as guardians of the heart.
Everyday I ask myself, where has the peanut butter gone?
#4
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:14 PM
Tarr;274884 said:
There was a shrine to Grizzin Farl on one of the floating fortresses and Draconus and sister of cold nights (SoCN) do not count they symbolise the heart of Krul.
????
where'd you get that from? Please share, lol
As for the original question, we're not even sure if all the Elder races were religious types... and I refuse to just stick the EGs who were just briefly mentioned in a connection with one race or the other.
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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Jump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:
And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
#5
thesalus
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:55 PM
Here's the quote on the Errant from Midnight Tides
The bit about Grizzin Farl was in tBH, when Kalam noticed carvings in the pit that QB and Stormy fell into. And Cotillion remarked that it might have been attributed to Grizzin Farl.
And Edgewalker does proclaim himself to be an elemental force of sorts.
Somehow it reminds me of what Eddings did in the Belgariad/Mallorean...
Quote
Not much. The language on the door belongs to an extinct people known as Forkrul Assail, who are collectively personified in our Fulcra by the personage we call the Errant.
The bit about Grizzin Farl was in tBH, when Kalam noticed carvings in the pit that QB and Stormy fell into. And Cotillion remarked that it might have been attributed to Grizzin Farl.
And Edgewalker does proclaim himself to be an elemental force of sorts.
Somehow it reminds me of what Eddings did in the Belgariad/Mallorean...
#6
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 10:20 PM
BH, on Chapter 6, said:
Cotillion walked over to the nearest wall. 'Curious,' he said. 'This is a temple to an Elder God. Not sure which one. Kilmandaros, maybe. Or Grizzin Farl. Maybe even K'rul.'
Just because a god was particularly worshipped by a certain culture does make them particularly associated with that species. Evidently those of a particular species/culture are going to more likely worship their own ascended, but as time goes on it matters little. Mael, K'rul, Togg and Fanderay have all been worshipped by humans, despite them all being around long before there were even humans...
#7
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 10:50 PM
thesalus;274939 said:
Here's the quote on the Errant from Midnight Tides
The bit about Grizzin Farl was in tBH, when Kalam noticed carvings in the pit that QB and Stormy fell into. And Cotillion remarked that it might have been attributed to Grizzin Farl.
And Edgewalker does proclaim himself to be an elemental force of sorts.
Somehow it reminds me of what Eddings did in the Belgariad/Mallorean...
The bit about Grizzin Farl was in tBH, when Kalam noticed carvings in the pit that QB and Stormy fell into. And Cotillion remarked that it might have been attributed to Grizzin Farl.
And Edgewalker does proclaim himself to be an elemental force of sorts.
Somehow it reminds me of what Eddings did in the Belgariad/Mallorean...
Yeah, and in tBH Ganath tells Paran that the Errant who arose as the god of chance was HATED by the FA, who declared a jihad on him and killed most of is followers...
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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Jump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:
And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
#8
Wry
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 11:45 PM
Plus you have that flashback of udinas's where the errant has just slaughtered a whole troop of FA.
Why do the Elder gods need to each have a race anyway, i mean there's alot of pretty big assumptions in there. the only one we know of who is explicitly tied to a race is mother dark, and we can even be sure if she actually exist or is just metaphorical, plus if she is real there's a strong chance she predates the "Elder gods". And Fanderay, who does predate them
As for the rest,
Mael - never mentioned as a racial god
Ardata - contempory of Kallor, only ascended after the elder gods started to wane.
Kilmandaros - Mentioned as having children, we've only gueses as to who they are
Tiam - Is she an elder god?
Father Light - we've no evidence he ever exists, or if he did that he's alive now.
Draconus - never mentioned as a racial god
K'rul - ditto
Sister of Cold Nights - Ditto
Sechul Lath - Ditto
Grizzin Farl - Ditto
Togg & Fanderay - Older than the elder Gods... though fand calls the ay her children
The Errant Never mention as being racial
Eres'al - Is she an elder god
It seems to me you're trying to make a simple catch all theory that slots everything into a neat bow... defeating the purpose of reading a complex series.
Why do the Elder gods need to each have a race anyway, i mean there's alot of pretty big assumptions in there. the only one we know of who is explicitly tied to a race is mother dark, and we can even be sure if she actually exist or is just metaphorical, plus if she is real there's a strong chance she predates the "Elder gods". And Fanderay, who does predate them
As for the rest,
Mael - never mentioned as a racial god
Ardata - contempory of Kallor, only ascended after the elder gods started to wane.
Kilmandaros - Mentioned as having children, we've only gueses as to who they are
Tiam - Is she an elder god?
Father Light - we've no evidence he ever exists, or if he did that he's alive now.
Draconus - never mentioned as a racial god
K'rul - ditto
Sister of Cold Nights - Ditto
Sechul Lath - Ditto
Grizzin Farl - Ditto
Togg & Fanderay - Older than the elder Gods... though fand calls the ay her children
The Errant Never mention as being racial
Eres'al - Is she an elder god
It seems to me you're trying to make a simple catch all theory that slots everything into a neat bow... defeating the purpose of reading a complex series.
#9
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 01:08 AM
No actually I was asking why elder gods keep getting associated with particular races and I really think I saw a passage somewhere that made it sound like the errant was the FA god. I was also interested because the barghast are descended from their gods, the tiste and we know kilmandaros considers sending her children after gothos so are these races the descendants of elder gods.
As to races worshiping their own ascendants, gods that used to be mortal are not elder gods e.g. Ardata
As for mael there are plenty of water creatures he could be the god of or he could be god of the stormriders or jaghut ( though they strike me as atheist's after all they don't have an underworld"
As to races worshiping their own ascendants, gods that used to be mortal are not elder gods e.g. Ardata
As for mael there are plenty of water creatures he could be the god of or he could be god of the stormriders or jaghut ( though they strike me as atheist's after all they don't have an underworld"
Everyday I ask myself, where has the peanut butter gone?
#10
Mentalist
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 01:20 AM
Some ppl like looking for simple answers, lol
RE: Errant + FA
that passage is from the PoV of Featherwitch is I'm not mistaken, not a terribly big authority, all in all.. Besides, not everything SE's characters say is to be taken literary
Barghast + other "primitive"races/cultures worship their ancsestors. with enough worship, they ascend. Even more--and they become Gods. EG's on the other hand came from (pardon the pun) Gods-know-where. They weren't suposedly ntive to Wu/Burn and only took over once the K'chain nearly exterminated themselves. Ofc, K'chain themselves likely came to Wu/burn from SD....
Long story short--it's complicated....
RE: Errant + FA
that passage is from the PoV of Featherwitch is I'm not mistaken, not a terribly big authority, all in all.. Besides, not everything SE's characters say is to be taken literary
Barghast + other "primitive"races/cultures worship their ancsestors. with enough worship, they ascend. Even more--and they become Gods. EG's on the other hand came from (pardon the pun) Gods-know-where. They weren't suposedly ntive to Wu/Burn and only took over once the K'chain nearly exterminated themselves. Ofc, K'chain themselves likely came to Wu/burn from SD....
Long story short--it's complicated....
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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Jump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:
And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
#11
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 01:50 AM
I am not looking for easy answers that would spoil the books.
What about the theory about the races being descended from their elder gods?
What about the theory about the races being descended from their elder gods?
Everyday I ask myself, where has the peanut butter gone?
#12
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:22 AM
Isn't it mentioned in either MT or RG that the Forkrul Assail fought against the Errant? He's a human aspected God, I believe.
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
#13
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:34 AM
Xander;275089 said:
Isn't it mentioned in either MT or RG that the Forkrul Assail fought against the Errant? He's a human aspected God, I believe.
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
@ Xander: see my post # 7
Nad I'm not gonna get into another Killimandros debate... I'll wait for further proof one way or th other...
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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Jump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:
And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
#15
D'rek
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:37 AM
they did a lot of things, to name a few:
-they conducted other 'pogroms' against the T'lan Imass, such as in Laederon
-they did that thing with the TL called the Just Wars
-they enjoyed a fanciful brunch everyday
-they conducted other 'pogroms' against the T'lan Imass, such as in Laederon
-they did that thing with the TL called the Just Wars
-they enjoyed a fanciful brunch everyday
#17
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:47 AM
My point being that the Forkrul Assail love brunch. In fact they all retreated from 'Wu' principally because of its general lack of brunch. They now live in their own private brunch warren with Grizzin Farl. He's actually the Elder God of the Culinary Arts.
My actual point was that whether the FA did a pogrom against the Errant or not (which they did) tells us nothing about Elder Gods having an affinity to certain races.
My actual point was that whether the FA did a pogrom against the Errant or not (which they did) tells us nothing about Elder Gods having an affinity to certain races.
#18
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 02:50 AM
now guys.. let's not spam too much...
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
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Jump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:
And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
#20
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Posted 15 March 2008 - 03:57 AM
Xander;275089 said:
Isn't it mentioned in either MT or RG that the Forkrul Assail fought against the Errant? He's a human aspected God, I believe.
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
Killy is FA
Grizzin Farl is the biggest mystery...
Nah, Grizzin Farl is just Edgewalker
Hmm, maybe that does make him the biggest mystery...I don't remember the quote about the FA going after the Errant's followers, but followers of order going after the random fits to a T.
