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Icarium's Warren(s)

#1 User is offline   Tarr 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 12:58 PM

Looking through all the threads everyone seems to say Icarium has not got ascess to Omtose Phellick and yet in an earlier book(Deadhouse gates I think) it states that he has carved warrens into his arrows.

This leaves two possibilities

1) He DOES have ascess to omtose phelick

or

2) Due to his Theloman Toblaki blood he is a warren onto himself

But then I got to thinking "Warrens" is a plural, in other words it's either he has ascess to lots of warrens (Quick Ben), its a spelling mistake (GotM) or he can his own create warrens (Krul).

I mean lots of times he is compared to krul it even states he was following in Krul's footprints so what if he CAN make warrens!!!

How would this development affect or perception of icarium, I mean he has been creating time keeping machines all over the place what if time keeping is not all that they do?
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#2 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 01:00 PM

I think he has an anti-matter forcefield emitter inside his stomach...

Icarium probably knows some tricks, like envoking the power of a god and how to access a random warren. The carvings on the arrows could be any warren, but they're some powerfull things, being able to knock down a dragon.
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#3 User is offline   Lancelot 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 01:33 PM

One arrow per warren = Lots of arrows = Lots of warrens - doesnt have to be different ones! My take on the (anti)matter.:p
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#4 User is offline   Skywalker 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 03:42 PM

Tarr;272371 said:

2) Due to his Theloman Toblaki blood he is a warren onto himself


So what do you think Icarium's Mom's Warren was like? :p Sorry - had to be said.

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OT: I think too much has been made of that 'If K'rul could do it, I can' comment in RG. 'Creating the warrens' is one of the things K'rul did. He's a gazillion years old and could've done some other quite smashing things for Icarium to emulate.
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#5 User is offline   Venerus 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 04:25 PM

His arrows are made of the wood of an Azath/petrified Jaghut, so it's entirely possible the warrens are somehow Omtose or Azath aspected. Since Azaths seem to be able to be anywhere, maybe any warren is possible.
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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 09:57 PM

The jaghut is Phyrlis, here's the quote:

Quote

Phyrlis: "Icarium, who carries arrows made from my branches. Who, each time he visits me, remembers naught of the previous encounter. Who asks, again and again, for my heartwood, so that he may fashion from it a mechanism to measure time, for my heartwood alone can outlive all othe constructs."
Karsa: "And do you oblige him?"
P: "No, for it would kill me. Instead, I bargain. A strong shaft for a bow. Branches for arrows.

Additionally, Phyrlis is entwined in the wood of the T'lan Imass spear containing what is left of the 'lifespirit' of the Azath House.
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Posted 11 March 2008 - 10:54 PM

I'm pretty sure he'd carved / wrought Omtose Phellack into his arrows. Or whatever warren he's down with. But he's no QB. Icarium might tap Starvald Demelain (o_O) or something crazy, but he's not in command of a zillion warrens. We never even see him do magic, which I'm pretty sure a skilled mage would do during the course of his usual daily travels.

The magic in them could be very powerful, not necessarily an individual warren. "carving warrens" I read a akin to the enchantment, investment, and aspecting of objects. His arrows are imbued with powerful magic, strong enough to down a dragon. I mean, QB fucked up some of the draconic soletaken (and I know that's not the same thing), but it must be possible to do it by force of magic.

Enchanted arrows. That's my explanation, though Phyrlis might be influential.
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#8 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 11 March 2008 - 11:04 PM

i agree with the invested arrows part. but iccy being able to access a warren is something i wouldnt put to much stock in. wouldnt he have done it by now? his blood is not pure jaghut so he isnt naturally attuned to OP but he has the TTT in him which could give him a small bit of that personal warren business.

overall i think icariums power comes mostly from his rage.
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#9 User is offline   greenteam 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 12:36 AM

Sinisdar Toste;272597 said:

overall i think icariums power comes mostly from his rage.


do you mean like the hulk??
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#10 User is offline   Kalahinen 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 08:18 AM

greenteam;272631 said:

do you mean like the hulk??


A good comparison, amusing.

I wonder if Icarium has forgotten most of his magic during the millenia...maybe an influence of the Nameless Ones...
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#11 User is offline   Lisheo 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 09:26 AM

Is it possible that Iccy has access to a fragment of Shadow? Or whatever warren he shredded?
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#12 User is offline   Toblakai 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 08:43 PM

From DG:
'The warrens carved into their shafts could bring down a dragon, but
Icarium's expression made it clear he was sickened by the thought.'

Maybe it's a stretch, since Icarium doesn't seem to have much interaction with anyone other than his companion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he actually did the carving; it could have been a former companion(there have been many).

As far as the storm of raw power that he generates when frenzied, it does not seem to me to be the conscious accesssing of a warren, or even the kind of unfocused natural talent displayed by Blend. I'm more inclined to agree with the theory that he has become a warren unto himself due to his toblokai blood, though I suspect it is something else entirely.
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#13 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 09:12 PM

Lets not forget either, that the rage that takes over Icarium, isn't exactly something unique in this Jhag. It's said that the Jaghuts rage, when you finally manage to awaken their anger, is a terrible thing.

It could be that Icarium is just, despite being Jhag, perhaps because of his mother, a creature with the power of a Jaghut Tyrant missing a natural limit to the power he can unleash.

About the hulk thing. I believe it was Tes'thesula that submitted a question whether Iccy was inspired by the hulk. Erikson denied this in a interview, he found the idea absurd almost.

But even though erikson can't see the likeness, to any marvel fan the resemblance, especially to the early hulk, is crystal clear. He turns into something different and very dangerous when he looses his temper/control. He seems to grow stronger the longer his rage runs. He's got a companion/friend, Rick Jones is the obvious example. He's actually a very quiet and brilliant person when his rage isn't controlling him. All that's missing is Iccy's Betsy Ross.
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#14 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 10:43 PM

Aptorian;273154 said:

Lets not forget either, that the rage that takes over Icarium, isn't exactly something unique in this Jhag. It's said that the Jaghuts rage, when you finally manage to awaken their anger, is a terrible thing.


Some T'lan Imass somewhere says something like this: "The key lay in making them angry, for then they killed indescriminately." Icarium sure has the killing and the indescriminate part down-pat.
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#15 User is offline   Tarr 

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 11:38 PM

So maybe he does'nt use his warren(s) to investe his arrows but he still creates those mechanisms that measure time and I doubt they run on small atomic reactors hidden behind the 5 so its probally magery there.

And as to his warren perhaps he has ascess to the kchain warren as his mechanisms are always compared to them.

But I have a better theory (more destruction of public property involved) Icarium does'nt create his own warrens he steals bits of other's warrens (Kchain, Jaghut and some Theloman) and fuses them into the ultimate chaos warren which is more likely to smash a continent than whatever it was you were trying to make it do e.g. float a tea cup.
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#16 User is offline   Seed 

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:33 AM

Hmmm this is a bit of a speculative ramble, apologies in advance if I start wandering from the point...

I've got the feeling that Warren is a more multi-use term also used to describe any snarl or labyrinth of power that can retain energies and souls etc within itself.

Samar devs knife blade was described as a warren, layers of steel folded into itself and then folded again while being invested with power, it can snare souls.

I like to think these mini warrens as dimensional pockets to contain power and energies that can be created and anchored to an object, if the object has been prepared correctly by giving it some kind of labyrinth/maze structure, whether carved into patterns on Iccy's arrows, or folded like Samars blade. The person making the warren object invests power while preparing the object in a ritual manner and the end result is that power all wrapped up and anchored to the object. Like tying a 5 dimensional bowtie to the head of your arrow, the only thing visible in physical space is the anchor points of the pattern carved into the arrow, the rest of it being a labyrinthine snarl of sorcery lurking just on the Otherside of the physical barrier.

Maybe when created these physical linked warrens can only be small and store insubstantials (energies), if you wanted to make a bag like mappo's that stores/contains physical objects you need to steal a piece of a 'capital w" Warren (fragment of Shadow) and anchor it to an object in a similar manner.

Naturally in both cases, only powerful people and/or old knowledge holders need apply for lessons. Your average dude on the street probably has not the power or ability to construct such things.

I think his calendar machines take power from the wheeling of the heavens in some fashion. They measure time, they're probably linked via Nruk or Eres sorcerous/physics priniciples into the orbits of the moons and planets/stars and bleed a little power from there while ticking away the eons slowly.

Hmm finnests and suchlike would be a similar beast to these little warren things I'd imagine. Jaguts would use theirs to hold their connection gate to omtose phellack. Hmmm now I wondering if having a soul is linked to being able to attune to a warren initially. They say human newbie mages meditate and a warren opens itself to them if they're ready/worthy/able etc. We know jaghut can only draw power via a finnest, they seem to claim not to have souls, I have to wonder if it's linked somehow...anyway I'm starting to ramble and clutch at straws so I'll leave it there.

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#17 User is offline   Raraku 

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:51 AM

I think that Icarium is different from other Jhag (whether they are Jhagut+TTT or other types).
Cause of whatever the Nameless Ones did or because of him shredding warrens and azath houses he is a more destructive and more fearsome power than the others.
wish we could get soem info on other Jhag then we maybe able to pinpoint the difference and as to why he can make arrows that can bring dragons down ..................... as someone mentioned above he takes the power in the raw materials and causes chaos within them

#18 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 05:41 AM

At Seed: No one says Jaghuts can't use their power without a finnest. The reason to why Raest needed his, was that the other Jaghuts and Imass had somehow taken a large portion of his strength and bound it within the finnest. Most likely because any barrow with wards wouldn't be able to hold a Tyrant for long.

The machines don't need to draw power from the heavens or the earthsrotation. Magic is a great source of power, binding the energy of a warren to a machine it can simply keep on going for ever like an atomic-clock.
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#19 User is offline   Seed 

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 06:26 AM

Apt: cheers for the correction, I'd forgotten that bit from GotM re: raest and his finnest.

I thought initially that Iccy could have just used a powertap of types into the warrens and just run it on sorcery, but then I thought it would be more interesting and appropriate for them to be running on gravitic principles and tried to see if that could fit the evidence as well. Especially as they're calendar machines. :p All this talk of moon movements and gravity sorcery powers and stuff in the other threads has placed these strange ideas in my head and they won't go away.
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#20 User is offline   dktorode 

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 08:49 AM

Well Iccy can "smell" sorcery and distinguish between warrens that have been used in the past in a area (in ChoD in Pusts basement for instance) . Aren't only people that can wield "magic" able to "smell" or sense the residue of anothers warren being used? your stock standard bloke cant distinguish between warrens or even if sorcery has been used. Yet Iccy not only senses it, he can tell you which warren it was. Which suggests some sort of sourcerous predisposition in his biology i would think.
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