[drinksinbars]

aha.. i have read your chapter four, its starting to take shape... good very good. now for some critique

ok i liked it, starting to grab my attention and the pacing has really improved from the start.

i think you need to expand some parts though and maybe lose others. for example i think the intro of orm to the ship could be handled better, try to expand the confrontation with the captain, instead of him just sending orm down to the two workering make him strip away some of orm's confidence. tyr to add a little confrontation, the captain making his place known, and that way when orm reaches the two kibb and brant, he'll already feel small and shamed. then when they push him his explosion seems fmore reasonable and better realised. i think orm for all his confidence seems to have momentary lapses into weeakness that you need to watch out for. that confidence to me seems like his most powerful charcteristic and shouldnt be put down, but should be exploited. I know they are pretending to be ordinary soldiers but the scene in the inn when orm gets beer spilled on him could have been a good way of showing his steel. not necessarily fighting but showing a bit of strength and grit just in his expression to sober up the drunk into avoiding a brawl. that would give him a little leeway and respect which he was already building with earlier actions.

the fight between brant and orm, this magic system is interesting and i like the way you describe it, but might it be better instead of brant finding some mysterious other anchor, couldnt he just punch orm, catching him off guard with an unorthodox move. This would be a good example of learning that orm is expected to achieve and set him off balance to his training, perhaps following along the broadening of his horizons impied by his carrying the knife and sword.

i have to say i am very impressed with the naming which is consistently good and well structured.

one line struck me as odd, order spies - spie sof the order, really no need for the second half of that.

plus if kep sees the soldiers and says their arrogant and confident, surely that includes orm in the tavern so why would he balk at starting a brawl with the drunk.

dont know if you want to consider this but i have been redoing my story and trying to remove any dialogue which doesnt involve a ""said. I really think its an easy thing to do and when its excluded can add an urgency. for example

‘Look, I’m just saying that we could get the job done quicker if you gave me a hand,’ said Orm.
‘We’ve been doing this all morning,’ Kibb shouted, ‘so just because you’ve had to carry a couple of boxes, don’t think you’re getting any sympathy here."

the said Orm is invisible, but keeps the reader in tuned. now if the conversation ran on and the dialogue became hated then if you left the said out it would make the reader read faster and add another depth to it. maybe im talking **** but thats what i think anyway. when a device in used a lot, especially the simple ones i think the absence of said device where its expected is more dramatic than some other devices of similar meaning.


forgot to add that i think the dialogue where its expanded and lengthy is in general really well written, but there are too many instances in the really short sections that the dialogue is too cut up to have an effect. if you dropped wrests section and expanded Pir's to include a chat about it then it would be more effective. pehaps iuncrease the talking between pir and the reaver then include a scene below with wrest that covers the porblems of rest. plus if wrests crew are tired arent they just resting on the ship?? the two lines of dialogue between pir and adares are unnecessary in either briefness or usage, if they are going to talk expand it, otherwise i dont think its necessary.

well hope that helps some

[Yellow]

Something like that It's good to hear what your suspicions are so far...

Thanks for the help, DiB, it's much appreciated.

*Glad he doesn't have to change his main characters' names...*

[Yellow]

Right well you've both mentioned the Pir thing, which is a problem for me because I honestly disagree with both of you. I don't think he's acting out of character at all, but tbh I feel it's really a minor point. I guess I'll have to revise it.

You mention expanding the scenes/adding more scenes etc... I see what you mean and I agree with you to a certain extent, but the problem I would face is that the book would end up being 400,000 words long. Atm I'm expecting it to be between 150-200,000 words, more likely the upper. You'll just have to bear with it throughout the first draft - it's not something I can easily modify until the whole thing is written. It will be much easier for me to get a better perspective once it's all done.

As for the swear words... yeah I mostly agree... someone said a while back that made-up swear words sound corny and childish, and I agree. They have the effect they have because we attach bad vibes to the words, so to make some new ones up hardly ever works. There are more swear words in my earlier stuff, btw - not just in this chapter... there aren't many, but they're there. Sh*t and f*ck have both made previous appearances

Ok thanks for the comments once again

[will]

Ok, so I’ve been all the way through your stuff once, and I’ve got to say that so far things are going well. Your writing – by which I mean the way you put words together – is usually strong and the characters are interesting and obviously have some depth to them. The biggest thing you’re doing right so far is the story. It’s engaging and it pulls the reader along. I want to know what happens next and I’m already hazarding guesses at the back of my mind.

So, that’s the good stuff, now, I hear you asking, what are the problems. I think that when you do get around to doing a rewrite the most important area to look at are the pacing and the structure, particularly in the opening chapters. I feel that, in the beginning the story lacks a certain amount of focus. I am given five different points-of-view (six if you count the prologue) most of which are quite short and contain only a few events. Also there is a notable imbalance between the amount of text dedicated to characters thoughts and the amount dedicated what is actually happening – I read a couple of other comments on this thread and I noticed some people saying that the opening scenes felt a little slow and I think it’s the large amount of thinking which goes on that’s slowing things down. Finally I think some of your choices in terms of structure are contributing to the lack of focus. You begin the main story with Yannish and then the old Maghin guy but it is Vos, Pir and particularly Orm who assume a more central place for the remainder of this opening part.

I feel that what these first chapters need is a focus. Pick one of the characters – I suggest Orm – and let him hold the central role more firmly at the beginning, you can relax this more and more as the story progresses. It’s not that I’m against large casts and multiple points of view (I’m reading SE after all) it’s just that I’m here in a new world and I want a moment to breath and find my footing and I’d like one of the characters to hold my hand while I do it. I’d give Orm a couple of new scenes or expand what happens in the ones he has, write the scene where he says goodbye to his friends rather than having him remember it have him do something before the show down with his teacher… whatever seems relevant, and then really tighten the other characters scenes. I think you also need more showing and less telling. Like I said there is a lot of thinking and characters remembering what has happened in between their POV scenes, I would prefer less of this and more things happening. I realised toward the end of this section that it didn’t feel like we were as far into the book as we obviously are and I think this is because not as much has happened as you might expect.

God. Sorry if all this is too much, I think I’ve gone overboard and I’m starting to sound kind of pompous as well (especially for someone who has only just turned up here). Also I guess it’s now sounding a little negative, which I don’t mean to be. I think there is a lot of promise in this story and I’m very interested to see where it goes. There is an idea I’m trying to get across with all this and I don’t know if I’ve succeeded. In summary: story – good; more focus – better. As an example of a time when you really do get the focus right, the part in Banesul is very tidy. You’ve got two stories going but they come together and held one another up. The jumping back and forth between the magi and the assassins works because there is a sense of forward movement to the story.

I don’t know if any of this makes sense, but that’s my view on it all. Hope it helps.

[Cause]

quote:

cause.cause@gmail.com.

Can you send the new stuff to me please. I have some time on wednesday public holiday. I will try get it done than.

[Yellow]

Just goes to show I didn't make it clear enough

On one hand it's good that you can make more sense of it second time through, on the other it's bad because it should be enjoyable/accessible first time through... Ho-hum, I'll get there eventually...

[Yellow]

[Cause]

nearly through it interesting. Will have comment up soon

[drinksinbars]

aye send me a copy, im always good for some flaming

the next section of mine will be done by next week...hopefully

[Yellow]

Ok, it's been a while, but Chapter 8 is done (I said it's chapter 9 in the emails I sent out, but that was a typo). Sent it to DiB, Brys, Will and Cause. Anyone else wants it, let me know.

Once again, I'm not 100% happy with it, but let's see if you guys pick up on the same problems.

Does anyone know of a medieval/16th century-ish version of the word "flirting"? I use it once in this chapter, but I'm not sure it fits.

Btw - I've decided to tone down the doubt stuff in the Vos section last chapter... it was a spontaneity thing, and in retrospect it's not needed, especially since it's a theme that I want to build with Pir, and I don't want to lay it all on too thick. I've not changed anything as of yet, but I'll get round to it at some point.

[drinksinbars]

first and least important, character names- no need to change them.

next the pacing, well i admit i found this chapter more rushed, but the first few chapters were too slow, like i said before i think you had the pacing right with chapter 4.

from that i would say the end of this chapter needs looking at in that the build up to meeting the arakama is slow and tense, but the conversation is very hurried and urgent even though i get the impression this is a patient creature and a mischeovious one who is seeking revenge on the world of man. perhaps expanding it to encompass more dialogue and twisting about the truth ntil pir realises his dilema.

i think the arakama are going to use maurin as a weapon of their fashioning, dont know about pir, it seems like he is being killed off but i doubt that as it would make little or no sense, so why should she give him an insight onyl to have him pit himself against her? i guess though that maurin is now some sort of vacuum for the gis? they are going to use him to destroy the poirtals between the worlds amybe and so cut of the gis from the sha and leave them as preeminent and the new gods of man??

[Yellow]

Right! You and me, outside!

Nah, s'okay... but tbh I'm not seeing the problem. I'll see if anyone else picks it up.

[drinksinbars]

honestly will, and im not trying to answer for yellow here or anything but the more critique the better. thats the whole point of the writers forum, your meant to offer critism not blatant flaming and calling someone ****e, but simple points, as you've made, are exactly what everyone who contributes to the forum is looking for

sorry for topic jockeying there yellow

[Cause]

okay Im reading it now.

[drinksinbars]

hello,

well where to start, hmm i feel you have fallen backward rather than forward mate there are some really well written bits in there but i felt some of it was confusing and didnt work too well, most notably the last section with pir. it was just too sudden and unexplained. Plus all this stuff about gis and shan is starting to pickle my brain.. i would suggest holding it back a bit and giving it out in really small hints instead of the full on, im going to lecture you about this for a moment con betqween pir and ghan.

now thats not saying i didnt enjoy it, but i felt it wasnt as good as 4. the scene with the ships though was excellent and really captured my imagination, i think the finally needs working on it to nail it though because you build up the scene ands then just cut it short. expansion perhaps and some tension added in, as it is it reads very flat toward the end when compared to the sweeping grandeur you display at the start of the scene.

i hope im not being to critical but your on chapter five so i guess your serious about this and wont be too pissed if i start really critiscing you, maybe you will with mine but the conversation at the start feels wrong somehow, i dont know it just didnt seem to be the same three characters as from the previous chapter. i dont know why i felt like that as rereading it i couldnt see hwta it was made me think that, but the reread didnt help me relate any better too them perhaps you should look into the dialogue between them and their character names, i know names arent mean tot be important but i find it hard to take kep and saf seriously, is the three letter thing intentional?? i know i said it before but i really think the occassional seh said angrily, or a said vos quietly, her mind ... you know, theres three charcters and we dont always know wwhos talking or why they are so worked up.

suggestions:- i would recommend that you remove, here and in previous chapters the magic methodology. not completely mind but just narrow down the info so that instead it can be slowly explained. Its a fantasy novel and although it needs magic, it needs a sense of magic too, you know a bit of wonder and awe in the reader as if to go, ohhhh how he do that then?? having you explain it really early sort of takes away the pay-offs.

for the scene where ghan talks about the gis, it really just felt too much too soon, for someone feeling sullied he was laquocious enough.

feel free to be outraged, and angry....

i suggest throughly you sit down and read the story the whole way through, think about it from someone who knows nothing about what you have in your head that you want to convey. then decide how quickly or slowly you want to show it too them. PACING is important... now i know i mentioned it before a few times but i think chapter 4 was the closest to it you have so far, anytime you want to slow the pacing down try to do so with scenes like banesul are slow but welcome.

oh i really enjoyed the death scene, the first line is brilliant, maybe even good enough to go as first line in the chapter??? think about the last line in the chapter though, maybe rework it so that we are in yannishs thoughts instead of the god pov and if you can amp up the undercurrent of fear and tension. Maybe make yannish feel isolated from the others, or maurin isolated. try to add something into it to make it more emotional.

[opiate taylor]

I'd like a copy of what you have so far
aaronsingleton@gmail.com
thanks!

[drinksinbars]

i think you misunderstood me slightly. pir seems out of his depth i agree, but he still maintains an illusion of control in front of everyone. and you dont give any indication that its a bluff, which makes him seem foolish especiallly with the result. i wasnt implying she was a bad guy, just merely that she could prove the point another way. perhaps start the scene fromt he moment at the end of the last chapter and have her teleport into his tent to wait for him, i dont know i9 love a bit of emotional torure, its one of the key themes in my story so ramp it up by all means.

[Yellow]

I'm not sure that's where I want to go with that bit - I was hoping to show Orm as being a bit intimidated by the crowds in the place (he's never really been to a place like that - I know the first time I went into a rough pub where everyone looked like they could spit daggers, I wanted to go unnoticed and not start any aggro).

Kep has a somewhat biased opinion towards soldiers - he hates them So anything he thinks about them should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Also - Lemnoch's squad aren't normal soldiers, they're specially-trained Warrior Magi, and although they want to blend in, I don't think this has to extend to pub brawls and the like.

I've also already had Orm in two fights in two days, and don't want to have him fighting all the time. He's arrogant and quick to temper sometimes, but I don't want him to come across as a complete knob-head. He's going to develop throughout the story (god, I hope so anyway!), and I don't want to go too far down that road, so that I can't make it back

So I think I'm gonna have to go against you on this one