[Ain't_It_Just_]

That cursed Path of Hands... what became of that, I wonder?

[Holsety]

Ain said:

D'ivers and Soletaken aren't mortal enemies- at least, i don't think so.

In DG:

"The Emperor clashed with Ryllandaras and Treach outside Li heng. I was there."

-Fid

Now, maybe they were fought separately, but from the sentence, it sounds like they were a team....

In fact, since in MoI Ryllandaras is referred by Treach as "old friend", it seems I'm right.

Mind you, they both lived a while ago. Maybe today's generation of shapeshifters are bigots.

IIRC in Li Heng Treach and Ryllandaras were also fighting each other. I'm pretty sure when Ryllandaras meets Iccy and Mappy he says something about hating Treach.

However I don't think there's any simple "d'ivers hate soletaken" or "soletaken hate d'ivers" dichotomy going on here. Like they said, presumably if a soletaken/d'ivers managed to get through the Path of hands they would achieve dominance over other shapeshifters, but at the moment I don't think there's any indication that soletaken or d'ivers have any general alliances.

[Silencer]

The Path of Hands ended. Sort of. Mainly due to most of the Soletaken on it either dying or figuring out that they had been tricked. Also possibly due to the rise of the Wolves, as they hold the Beast Throne and L'oric mentioned something about them maybe demanding obedience in the future.

@Venerus, not explicitly, someone mentioned "the first time they met"

[Holsety]

Silencer;267377 said:

The Path of Hands ended. Sort of. Mainly due to most of the Soletaken on it either dying or figuring out that they had been tricked. Also possibly due to the rise of the Wolves, as they hold the Beast Throne and L'oric mentioned something about them maybe demanding obedience in the future.

@Venerus, not explicitly, someone mentioned "the first time they met"

Oh damn. I missed that!

Wait, ok, so is the beast throne the same thing as the imass throne?

[Silencer]

The Beast Throne is (most likely), the original throne of worship for the Imass, before they abandoned it in the Ritual of Tellan.

[Holsety]

Silencer;267396 said:

The Beast Throne is (most likely), the original throne of worship for the Imass, before they abandoned it in the Ritual of Tellan.

Ok, so to get things straight, the throne possessed by ST is not the same throne F+T flank?

[Silencer]

The First Throne is different. The fact is that F and T took the Beast Throne - a Throne before the First Empire of the T'lan. The one ST holds IS the First Throne of the T'lan Imass. The two are unrelated, and separated by time and a giant necromantic ritual....

Hope that helps

[Aptorian]

No, when they stuffed their souls into the warren of tellan, they bound themselves to the first throne. That's the throne that Kellanved used and it's the one they guard in BH.

EDIT: Silencer was fast.

[Silencer]

Thanks Apt!

[Lisheo]

I wonder, as the disease of Shapeshifting seems to be a degenerative one depending on how long one stays in whatever form, how come the Eleint dont suffer from it? Take Rud Elalle, he would go insane after a few years if he was a normal Soletaken, does that imply that the "normal shapeshifters" are just flawed copies unable to achieve the power levels necessary to stay sane and master the disease?
Does that mean that D'ivers, a "higher order", are in something like another copy of Eleint? I mean, if you look at the timeline, I dont ever recall a mention of D'ivers before the Beast Ritual, so were they created by Dessimbelackis to solve the problem of going insane because of "lack of power" cus I dont have another term for it? It would explain his choice of becoming D'ivers... I know, a whole lot of wild theorising there....

[Kalahinen]

Another thing I've been pondering on conserning the Soletaken is Andarist's comment about Rake loosing his immortality if he renounced his draconean blood. So, according to this, Rake only gained ascendancy through his drinking Tiam's blood. I find this odd.

[thesalus]

I took it that the First Empire Soletaken/D'ivers are afflicted so because they spent practically all their time in their soletaken forms battling each other. Whereas the Eleint seem to assume their draconic forms only when necessity demands it. The only points at which we see the Path of Hands shapeshifters in human form are when Messremb was submitting to Icarium's security check and when Gryllen was trying to snare some tasty humans.

Quote

'Treach was a First Hero,' Heboric replied. 'A Soletaken who escaped the Slaughter. Like Ryllandaras and Rikkter, Tholen and Denesmet.

~500 in tBH
Anybody know of any other mention of Rikkter, Tholen and Denesmet? Did they all die under the chalcedonic scourging of the T'lan Imass?

On a side note... there was a passage in tBH with Heboric thinking about Treach before his ascendancy (I think). That if he had spent much more time in his soletaken form he'd lose his ascendancy... Would that mean he'd die a mortal death? i.e. Do normal shapeshifters submit to disease and old age? I take it this was not Ascendant-ascendancy... perhaps it was more a reference to his ability to resume a human shape. (Kind of like Tobias in Animorphs?) I'll have to dig up the quote.

Quote

All I would suggest, personally, is to those Soletaken and D'ivers among us: 'ware the new occupants of the Beast Throne. They may well come to you, eventually, to demand that you kneel before them.' He smiled. 'Alas, all those poor fools who followed the Path of the Hand. The game was won far, far away—'
'We were the victims,' Fayelle murmured, 'of deception. By minions of Shadowthrone, no less, for which there will one day be a reckoning.'

Here's the quote Silencer was referring to. Interesting that Fayelle w as there.

[Venerus]

Isn't the "Slaughter" Heboric is referring to the T'lan Imass' action against the FE? I think that means Rikkter et al should still be active, or died from other causes.

[Lisheo]

Rikkter's name is used as a curse in NoK, and that suggests he was still alive in the time of the Malaz Empire. He's not really powerful enough for any soldier to know his name as they would an ascendant or God, I'd say.
I'm assuming normal shapeshifters do not die normal deaths, but maybe again it depends on how strong they are.
It seems that Eleint Soletaken is both shapeshifter and ascendant, which kinda has to give them the edge. From all the descriptions in the book, barring the path of hands, it seems very difficult for Soletaken to ascend. Treach had to die first! And the Pack in MT, well, who knows.

[lobo the wolfman]

I thought that Treach was already ascendant before he died. Picker and Quick Ben keep refering to him as such in MOI. The only reason he had to die was to become the new god of war. Same way the Emperor died to became Shadowthrone.

As as regards to Olar Ethil, she states that she is the undead TWIN to Tiam, would that mean that there is no limit to the size of a soletaken, or the amount of froms a D'vers can veer into?

[Ain't_It_Just_]

lobo the wolfman;271690 said:

I thought that Treach was already ascendant before he died. Picker and Quick Ben keep refering to him as such in MOI. The only reason he had to die was to become the new god of war. Same way the Emperor died to became Shadowthrone.

As as regards to Olar Ethil, she states that she is the undead TWIN to Tiam, would that mean that there is no limit to the size of a soletaken, or the amount of froms a D'vers can veer into?

Dunno about unlimited forms for D'ivers or Soletaken size, but they can increase the number of forms. Ryllandaras did that, from 6 wolves to 20.

[Sindriss]

Imagine d'ivers dragons !

[Aptorian]

I thought the D'ivers Dhenrabi was impressive enough. Armored seasnakes the size of a ship are not something you want to fuck with...

[Kalahinen]

Aptorian;271780 said:

I thought the D'ivers Dhenrabi was impressive enough. Armored seasnakes the size of a ship are not something you want to fuck with...

And look what happened to it. It was eaten by a DOG! So much for impressive.

[Abyss]

Couple of points:

1. Soletaken and d'ivers, at least those originating from the First Empire, are INSANE. They can maintain peiods of cogency, as did Messerb when he encountered Iccy and Mapo - tho even then Mappo internal monologues that there's crazy in Messy's eyes. That said, in MoI, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, while clearly nuts, didn't seem full blown insane, and Buke went all 'withdrawal from humanity' as opposed to 'kill kill eat kill'.

2. Iccy threatens Ryallandaras with telling Treach Ry' is alive. Ry decides to go hunt the Aptorian instead.

3. It certainly seems that the Path of Hands ended at the Beast throne(s), and since Shapeshifter was a tile in the Beast Hold in Leth, that seems to support it, along with the above quote from HoC (which i also take as confirming Fayelle as soletaken).

4. Draconean soletaken is a different thing from the animal-based soletaken and d'ivers. No insanity, more/different power base.

5. Gryllen was an example of a d'ivers that gained in power. It seemed that they do so by longevity and/or eating other shapeshifters (or just powerful beings generally). Note in DG the bloodfly d'ivers that scared even the Hounds of Shadow - basically, a d'ivers that stings its victim, which both poisons them AND lays a new d'ivers body inside them.... THAT'S. FUCKED.

6. Logically, any shapeshifter is an ascendent, since they have move beyond baseline human and become immortal and more powerful. So Trake was a soletaken AND an ascendent, and it appears he was already worshipped as a war god of sorts, tho' it seems Fener was acknowledged as the primary God of War until Heboric jadesmacked the pig out of its warren. Trake dies and ascended (more) to God of War because Fener fell and left a vacancy, but it appears he was demoted to 'Hunter' within the House of War at/around the same time per TB. Possibly because Togg/Fancytail had a stronger base of worshippers and more overall power when they were reunited and accessed the Throne while Trake was probably watching Gruntle's Legion being puréed by K'chain Che'malle outside Coral in MoI. So as i see it, Trake is still A god of war, but Togg/Fermented are THE Gods of War.


- Abyss, thinkymeatz hurtz now...