[Skywalker]

caladanbrood;266384 said:

Then what are they doing in Hood's realm? (with dead people, if you recall...)

Well...

Quote

The hooded one said, “Ghastly? I suppose it is. A necropolis of sorts, Shadowthrone. A village of the discarded. Both timeless and, yes, useless. Such places,” he continued, “are ubiquitous.”

Ubiquitous meaning it need not be Hood's realm at all. Could be a pocket necro-area in a fragment of Shadow.

[Chainsaw]

Hello everyone, long-time lurker, first-time poster. I read the Prologue with great interest and felt compelled to break my silence here.

The two sections of the Prologue that are the most intriguing, in my opinion, are the first and the last. I've seen some good theories put forth, but I think there are some subtle clues we are missing.

First section:

Re: the location of the meeting...

Quote

“There was a garrison, once, three soldiers who didn‘t know each other,� the man said. “But one by one they left.�

This quote reeks to me of subtle significance, but nothing immediately pops into my head.

With the priest and the lady, I am inclined to agree with the majority here - that their identities are not relevant to the story, but will probably end up being characters killed off in former books.

There is also quite a bit of debate about the identity of the third participant in the meeting. Most say Hood, some say Cotillion. I think it's pretty clear that it is NOT Hood, for the most obvious reason that this creature is not specifically named... and we are pretty familiar with Hood at this point, so much so that withholding his name would serve no purpose. It is definitely not Cotillion either, because, as was pointed out earlier, there is a lack of familiarity present between ST and this individual. Further, there are some clues in the dialogue about who this individual might be:

Quote

“You have called me here,� said the one named Edgewalker, “to … mitigate.�
“I have.�
“This has been a long time in coming.�
“You might think that way, Edgewalker.�
The grey-haired man -- who was clearly long dead -- cocked his head and asked, “Why now?�
The hooded figure turned slightly, and the woman thought he might be looking down on the dead dog. “Disgust,� he replied.

First, the word "mitigate"... not "mediate" as was pointed out earlier. This implies that Edgewalker is there to help... reduce, or lessen the impact of, something, maybe... damage?

Second, this mystery person has probably been around awhile, due to his familiarity with Edgewalker and the way he responds to EW's statement.

Next, there is this piece:

Quote

The hooded one said, “Ghastly? I suppose it is. A necropolis of sorts, Shadowthrone. A village of the discarded. Both timeless and, yes, useless. Such places,� he continued, “are ubiquitous.�
“Speak for yourself,� said Shadowthrone.

The key word here is "ubiquitous" and how ST responds. Basically, ST is saying that this individual is far-reaching, omnipresent, etc. Additionally, the hooded figure knows intimate details about this seemingly unimportant, anonymous patch of warren.

SO....

If this mystery figure is NOT Hood, then who else do we know that:

- Wears a hood
- Is (or could be) as tall as Edgewalker
- Is (or could be) quite ancient, maybe more so than EW
- Might need "mitigation"
- Is "ubiquitous"
- Has arcane knowledge of the warrens

My guess: K'rul

As is pointed out later on in the Prologue, K'rul is the "prize" of the war - and we know that the CG's Chaos flowing through his veins leaves him in a great deal of pain - thus perhaps the need for "mitigation".

It seems to me that K'rul would likely want to be at least informed about the plans of the CG's leading opponents, namely ST and whoever else might approach, since as the "prize" he stands to potentially lose the most in the war.

Now, on to the end of that first piece, regarding the identity of the approaching "4th party":

Quote

All at once the Hounds returned, hackles raised, gazes keen on something far up the main street.
“One more,� whispered the priest. “One more and the last, yes.�
“Will all this happen again?� the woman asked him, as sudden fear ripped through her. Someone is coming. Oh, gods, someone is coming. “Tomorrow? Tell me!�
“I would imagine not,� the priest said after a moment. He swung his gaze to the dog carcass lying in the dust. “No,� he said again, “I imagine not.�
From the hills, thunder and jade rain slashing down like the arrows from ten thousand battles. From down the street, the sudden rumble of carriage wheels.
She turned at that latter sound and smiled. “Oh,� she said in relief, “here comes my ride.�

I read this a bit differently than most, I guess. As the "fourth" party approaches, it seems that all the others (priest and lady included) turn and face that direction... the priest, after all, is the one who actually announces it. But then... there is a sudden rumble from BEHIND the party, because the lady actually physically turns to look at the "sudden rumble of carriage wheels". She is also noticeably familiar with the approaching carriage.

So...

It could be that I am over-analyzing this passage, but I think SE probably put a great deal of effort into carefully selecting each word in the Prologue, so maybe it's worth something.

If that's the case, then the "fourth party" approaching is someone of great - and possibly terrible, from the reactions of the priest and lady - power. Why would Paran inspire such fear in the lady? This "fourth" also would then not be the one arriving in the carriage - THAT individual(s) is someone else entirely, someone... crashing the party, or perhaps invited secretly by one of the attendees (sounds like something ST would do). The lady's recognition of the carriage probably does point to Paran showing up via the Trygalle, but the question is... as the "fourth party", or now... the fifth?

[Jorram]

@Chainsaw - Good points, all of these! Congratulations for a first post

The idea about K'rul is pretty sound. There is also a slight discrepancy in behaviour comparing this individual to what little we know of Hood (who always seemed harsher and more impatient to me). While I admit I'd still go for Hood, I think you might be on something there.

ST's response: "Speak for yourself" echoed strangely for me, too. However at that point I chose to ignore as I couldn't make out its sense.

The carriage origin direction is a great bit of info! Hadn't noticed that when I read it (I, too, am too impatient, it seems).

So, what about the last passage?

[Chainsaw]

The more I think on it, the more I like having five individuals present at the meeting in the first section. They would be:

- Shadowthrone
- Edgewalker
- K'rul / Hood / ?
- Anomander Rake
- Paran

Rake makes sense as the "fourth party", because the description of his power by the lady fits well. Nearly every time Rake makes an entrance, from GotM on, other characters "feel" his overpowering presence, and it usually frightens them. Paran, obviously, would be my pick for the carriage arrival.

This five-some is basically a who's-who of the players in the war against the CG and the events surrounding it... you've got your battleground (K'rul), your mortal / immortal opposition figures (Paran and ST), the Dragnipur saga (Rake), and the mysterious figure who quite clearly knows more and much more powerful than he lets on (Edgewalker). I think it fits, but then again, it's all speculation right? Part of me thinks the figures in question could be way out of left-field, whom we thought we'd never meet.


And now to the last passage of the Prologue:

I like what was suggested earlier, that Kruppe may be much longer-lived than previously believed, even quite possibly the "Tyrant" of lore. The following provides a clue:

Quote

There on the modest stage in K’rul's Bar earlier in the night, when he had watched on, content with his place in the glorious city he had saved more than once?

Key words: "more than once". I know he was the savior in GotM, but how many times before that? How often does a city even NEED saving, anyway?

Quote

K'rul glanced to one side, and saw a figure approaching, grey-haired, gaunt.
Kruppe sang, “‘Oh frail city, where strangers arrive … and the rest?"
The newcomer answered in a deep voice, "… pushing into the cracks, there to abide.’”
And the Elder God sighed.
“Join us, friend," said Kruppe. "Sit here by this fire: this scene paints the history of our kind, as you well know. A night, a hearth, and a tale to spin. Dear K’rul, dearest friend of Kruppe, hast thou ever seen Kruppe dance?”
The stranger sat. A wan face, an expression of sorrow and pain.

It's worth repeating: there are probably plenty of grey-haired, gaunt people running around. The two most obvious candidates are Kallor and Duiker. I do not think it is Kallor, because Kallor probably wouldn't show an expression of pain and sorrow, and would be well-known to K'rul, who would not tolerate his presence so easily. Duiker is possible, for the reasons outlined above. I think the key attribute listed is "deep voice", and I'm going to peruse the earlier books later tonight to see if I can find a good match to that.

Also interesting to note about this Prologue is that there are no dates / locations given for the scenes... obviously some don't require them, but earlier Prologues had them sometimes.

[Sindriss]

Excellent points chainsaw, I had something very similar to write yesterday after I had discussed the prologue with my brother. Unfortunately I was so tired so I had to wait to today, and now somebody else made those points, well that is life

I also think it could be K'rul as the hooded person, simply because he seems as old as edgewalker who is an elemental force.
To be, the gaunt and old person cannot be anybody else than duiker. Last we saw him, he was in K'rul tavern, so it fits perfectly that he shares a fireplace with kruppe and k'rul. Plus,

“Join us, friend," said Kruppe. "Sit here by this fire: this scene paints the history of our kind, as you well know."

conveys the image that he is well known in history, which again fits duiker since he is an imperial historian (or was).

After reading the prologue I think the following questions are risen.

- What is Shadowthrone, edgewalker and others up to
- How is draconus going to shatter the sword (Seems pretty clear to me that this is what he has been up to for some time, and that is why he speaks with the mage and probably others aswell)
- Will the TTT return to his people and lead them to war against the Nathii and the world or has he learned something.
- What is kruppe really capable of?

[Murrin]

The problem with the idea that there are five is that the priest says there are four--that one more completes the group. Since he can't have any sort of genuine knowledge of it (Erikson went out of his way to say this wasn't one of the repeating events), then this was a sort of premonition on his part, a feeling that four was the "right" number--it gives a suggestion that fate is involved. And after that, Erikson's not going to have the man's statement turn out to just be a load of nonsense by having five at the meeting instead.

[Deragoth]

Quote

...into the cracks, there to abide...

This makes me think of the Chained God. When Brood tried to flatten Kruppe, the cracks in the earth were filling with the blood of K'rul. Also Kruppe mentions "our kind" as if the newcomer is somehow seperate from those already at the fire. Kruppe, K'rul and the CG around a fire seems like an SE moment to me.

[Kalahinen]

A nice idea, actually.
But I refuse to believe it isn't Kallor, just out of good old sheer...stupidity.
Maybe Kallor is CG's avatar in the Malazan world...

Have faith, fellow Kallorists!

[Murrin]

The Crippled God, however, is exactly that--he is lame. He's not going to do any walking up to fires in his state. He brings people to him, he doesn't go to them.

[flea]

Obdigore;266024 said:

...

Anyone else think that last scene might hint that Kruppe is an elder god, and they had another elder god, who we hadn't seen before, come sit with them to talk?

Wasn't Nightchill an elder god in mage form? Kruppe almost seems like an earth god--remember how he wasn't affected by Caladan Broods hissy fit?

[Aptorian]

RAAAARRRHHH Kruppe is nor an ascendant and certainly not an Elder God!!!!

Don't just take one scene and twist it to fit with him being a god.

Kruppe and K'rul are spiritual or intellectual equals, Kruppe isn't a match for a gods power, but he's the cleverest creature out there.

[caladanbrood]

^^^^^^^^ I'm with stupid. ^^^^^^^

Kruppe is not a god. Deal with it

[flea]

Apt, just thinking off the top of my head there. Sorry if I am bringing something up that has been sliced and diced and thrown down the garbage disposal.

I do remember there has been a lot of discussion about Kruppe's origins/power/whatever. Is there consensus that he's just brilliant? I seem to recall in one of the books that is the impression of one the powerful characters.

[Nequam]

I would express anger just as Apt but I'm sad about Rodeo's dog, but still Kruppe is not an Elder God!
...and if he did turn out to be a god I would lose any and all respect I had for him. He wouldn't be the smartest mortal man ever anymore, he would just be a powerful being who has had milennia upon millennia to become smart.

[caladanbrood]

He is a mage, but not much of one. He gets the kind of power it took to protect himself from Burn's Hammer from K'rul.

[Slum]

I don't think Kruppe is a god at all. He's just too involved w/ everything. Or, at least he's not aloof. And he's got the abundant appetite/love for life thing going on. Not at all how we've seen other gods act. But anything is possible.

I think he's an earthly agent of some sort; in service of whom it is is hard to tell. Burn, Krul, CG, an as yet unknown player.

I really need to get my hands on this book though...like now.

Edit: Wow, I answer the phone in the middle of a post and there's 5 people saying what I was gonna say already. Geesh.

[Aptorian]

It's just after Brood tried to squash the fat mage. WJ and Dujek are discussing the events. I don't have the book at hand, but WJ theorises that Kruppe is being protected and the man posesses an exceptional mind, the scene leads you to believe that Kruppe almost has a "superhuman intellect".

[flea]

In other words, very old ground tediously covered. Point taken.

I know many don't like Kruppe, but I think he became more interesting the second time around in MOI. I look forward to spending time with him.

[Slum]

@ Apt -- Yeah, he's probably got a mensa card at home It's obvious he's got some type of crazy genius stuff working in that brain of his.

[Quick~]

yup, Whiskeyjack actually says he believes kruppe to be of unparalleled intellect (with QB coming close behind), that his defiance of Brood was a god stepping in and that Kruppe is exactly as he seems.