[amphibian]

I never said that bombings happen regularly in Europe. However, they are happening more often there and happen all the time in the Middle East and Asia.

Menandore;259630 said:

I am not naïve enough to think that you can just get rid of all the guns and then problem solved. That's not what I'm trying to say here. It just seems obvious that the guns are the root cause and so far I still haven't seen a better explanation.

The guns are not the root cause of school shootings. People are. More specifically, people with serious mental problems are the root cause.

The number of school shootings has risen partly because of copy-catting and partly because schools are relatively undefended locations with a large amount of people staying in a few spots and familiar lay-outs to the shooters. They want to do as much damage as they can and lash out at what's making them angry. Schools are a great place to accomplish those goals.

I do not think that there's much of a desensitization effect at work here. I think that the shooters are mostly aware of what they're doing and the implications of such. That's why they tend to kill themselves after they're done shooting others.

Nequam said:

What exactly do you do if you notice problems in kids? Instantly mark him as a possible serial killer? Do you know how many possible serial killers we will then have? What do we do about, medical attention isn't always cheap or even accessible. Do we just keep all of these people's file in a big filing cabinet so when they go to buy a gun we can stop them? I just don't see where you're going with all that.

Very few kids are obviously going to be killers when they're little, but if we get a significantly larger percentage the help, training and medication they need at earlier ages, events like this will not be happening that often. There'll be less of other kinds of problems too.

Filing cabinet? We've got computer databases these days. I'm generally against the increasing surveillance of people, but having gun background checks hook into current lists of those diagnosed with and undergoing or have undergone treatment for mental illnesses is a great idea. There could be a "Do Not Sell" list and a "Sell Only With Long Waiting Period/Proof of Treatment" list.

It's not going to catch everybody, but it should cut down on these occurrences. The last couple of school shootings have been committed by adults. This last one, the shooter had a gun license and two guns for a while, then went and bought two more guns a week before the shooting. There's not a whole lot we can do about something like that, but try to catch those with these problems along with everybody else with problems while they're young.

Like Skywalker said, there's a tendency to just plop the kid on some drugs and leave it at that. Coping skills and actually teaching people how to proactively deal with stress, their emotions and their lives are harder to teach and thus not used as often.

"Kazmierczak spent more than a year at a Chicago psychiatric treatment center called Thresholds-Mary Hill House in the late 1990s, former house manager Louise Gbadamashi told the Associated Press. She said his parents placed him after high school because he had become "unruly" at home. She also said he used to cut himself for attention."

When the symptom of a problem goes away, people assume that the problem itself has gone away.

[Morgoth]

amphibian;259651 said:

The guns are not the root cause of school shootings. People are. More specifically, people with serious mental problems are the root cause.

The number of school shootings has risen partly because of copy-catting and partly because schools are relatively undefended locations with a large amount of people staying in a few spots and familiar lay-outs to the shooters. They want to do as much damage as they can and lash out at what's making them angry. Schools are a great place to accomplish those goals.

I do not think that there's much of a desensitization effect at work here. I think that the shooters are mostly aware of what they're doing and the implications of such. That's why they tend to kill themselves after they're done shooting others.

Yet you have still not provided a single reason why the US experience school shootings fairly regularly, while Europe does not. You say it's not guns, and then you bring forth causes which are just as present in other western countries as they are in the US. Why, if not the availability of guns, do american students shoot each other while other western students do not?

[Nequam]

Menandore;259630 said:

I am not naïve enough to think that you can just get rid of all the guns and then problem solved. That's not what I'm trying to say here. It just seems obvious that the guns are the root cause and so far I still haven't seen a better explanation.

Oh no, I wasn't trying to imply that at all, in fact I wasn't talking directly to you, or anyone for that matter. I was agreeing that we needed to get rid of guns, but I didn't want to sound naive (how do get those two dot things?) by just saying it like that.

The accessibility to guns is the strongest and most supported explanation I can see.

Quote

The guns are not the root cause of school shootings. People are.

What? They are called school shootings right? Not school beatings or stabbings. True you cannot have shootings without people, but it's impossible to catch every crazy/stressed out/incredibly angry guy there is. However, it is not impossible to illegalize guns, which seem pretty much always involved in school shooting to my knowledge. If they couldn't get guns, they couldn't shoot. So yes, guns are the root cause of school shootings.

Quote

1) Not to go into Tom Cruise's Scientology dogma, but has any one looked at how medication/ stopping to use medication is a factor here? Could America have more shootings in part because of an over-reliance on mind altering drugs? I mean I can't imagine taking a Prozac or some such to alter how I feel. If I'm stressed out, I take a walk, a nap or whatever. I'm not saying there aren't seriously sick people that need medication - just wondering if popping pills has become just too easy.

Yes, I think you might have a good point there.

[Shinrei]

I've pointed this out before, but Japan has experienced a rash of school stabbings in recent years. Well, sure, with a gun the carnage could have been much worse.

But the thing is, the crazies doing the stabbings target ELEMENTARY and PRE-SCHOOLS. So you can't get the big weapons? Go for easier targets.

Also, what interests me is a couple of people have mentioned that where they live only the criminals have guns or you'd have to buy one from a criminal. That just makes me think "Hmm, I wouldn't feel real safe defending my home from an intruder when I can't get a gun and they can." As long as criminals can get a hold of them, why can't also own a firearm to defend myself?

Personally though, I'd take the back-ground check and raise the ante. Not only is a background check required, but training, classwork and rangework should be required as well. Also, anyone buying a gun who has a family (young children) should be required to buy some sort of gun safe when making a firearm purchase, or if they can't afford it, provide some proof of a method/place to keep them out of the reach of their children.

[Nequam]

Shinrei no Shintai;259724 said:

I've pointed this out before, but Japan has experienced a rash of school stabbings in recent years. Well, sure, with a gun the carnage could have been much worse.

But the thing is, the crazies doing the stabbings target ELEMENTARY and PRE-SCHOOLS. So you can't get the big weapons? Go for easier targets.

Also, what interests me is a couple of people have mentioned that where they live only the criminals have guns or you'd have to buy one from a criminal. That just makes me think "Hmm, I wouldn't feel real safe defending my home from an intruder when I can't get a gun and they can." As long as criminals can get a hold of them, why can't also own a firearm to defend myself?

Personally though, I'd take the back-ground check and raise the ante. Not only is a background check required, but training, classwork and rangework should be required as well. Also, anyone buying a gun who has a family (young children) should be required to buy some sort of gun safe when making a firearm purchase, or if they can't afford it, provide some proof of a method/place to keep them out of the reach of their children.

Pre-school kids!? That's horrible.

But I think I agree with you, resrcition might be the best way to go. I still might support the total outlawing of guns though.

[amphibian]

Morgoth;259680 said:

Yet you have still not provided a single reason why the US experience school shootings fairly regularly, while Europe does not. You say it's not guns, and then you bring forth causes which are just as present in other western countries as they are in the US. Why, if not the availability of guns, do american students shoot each other while other western students do not?

Over the last fifteen years, gun legislation has become increasingly restrictive and it is actually a good deal harder than it used to be to get firearms. Licenses, waiting periods and background checks are now pretty much the norm. Some states are adopting training class requirements.

If the easy availability of guns was the determining factor, why weren't there numerous school and mall shootings in the '60s and '70s? It is straight-up copy-catting. The Columbine massacre burst out into the national media and somehow, it resonated.

[Nequam]

Really? I don't want to be picky, but do have a link of some kind? I want to read up on your gun restriction information. I've just realized how uneducated I am in that area.

I may have to rethink my whole position if they are already doing background check and what not.

Well, it doens't rule out the media still. Which I still think also plays a major role just as most you guys. Yet, then why not in Europe too? Can we say that Americans really are just a more violent people?

[Mentalist]

hmm... one psychological factor (and I don't mean to be racist or prejudiced, here, these are cold, hard facts)
Which part of the states are most shooters from?
Studies show that the South And Westrn region of the uited States posess the so-called "culture of honour"--it is a social subculture where (esp. among males) personal honour plays a big role and agressive behaviour is more socially justifiable, when perceived slight than in the North. Studies were conducted comparing North and South college students. both groups were provoked (in a very narrow hallway, a confederate would bump into a participant, then swear at them). comparisons of Testosterone level before and after the insult in both groups, showed a significan difference among groups, with the "culture of honour" participants displaying a spike in testosterone levels. Another variable measured was the willingless to yield, when confronted in the same situation--participants were sent back through the same narrow hallway with a different confederate walking towards them. researchers who observed the video recording from the hallway measured at what point would the participants angle their bodies to allow the confederate to get by them. The difference in before and after insult for Northern participants was negligible. the difference for participants from the "culture of honour" was immense (from about 160 inches before to >40 inches after)

once again, my apologies for flooding this thread with psyc studies, but I have recently had an exam in social psychology and the agression topic was presented largely in the context of American school shootings, so I feel that this is relevant.

[Nequam]

Oh no, don't apologize. I love that kind of stuff. Seriously though I'm glad I live in the north. Whenever I do go down south or out west I feel all the kids are always angry...well not all of them but more than usual.

[Lost Marine]

@kud--The kids doing these shootings aren't the ones beating kids up in hallways though, at least when you get in a fistfight you get your aggression out some. The kids doing this are the ones who are too weak to do something when they're being bullied.

Although that space thing is true, I grew up in the South and now I live in the Midwest and it drives me crazy how close people stand here. They have no concept of personal space. I've also been known to get in fights if provoked. I also own guns. The difference is I'm a well adjusted individual and I abhor the taking of human lives for any reason besides self defense or defense of your family (self defense means that it's them or me). If you have a problem and your first thought is to grab your gun then you have issues.

As for making guns illegal, not only is it impractical but also dangerous. Good luck going through Georgia or Wisconsin saying we're here to take your guns away. Even if they were outlawed people would still get them, we can't keep drugs or people out of our country, guns would be the same way. As long as there is a country out there manufacturing guns there will be guns in America.

[Tarcanus]

I personally think that too much emphasis is being placed on guns and how easy it is to get them, in this thread. I'm not saying it's not an important part of it, but every time a root cause is touched on, the conversation gets swayed back to guns.

One poster barely touched on the fact that most violent media has ratings and it is those responsible for enforcing these ratings (parents/vendors) that are a huge part of the problem, as well. Very young children are playing Mature games with no explanation as to why what they're doing in the game is in no way acceptable in real-life. The same goes for violent movies and such. Children should not have access to inappropriately rated media.


It's also possible to bring up the problems of poorly funded schools that are becoming overburdened (as mentioned by someone in this thread, as well).

Then there's the growing problem (it's always been a problem but at least now it's getting attention) of bullying. I know I was pushed around in school and for a long time wanted to get back at the bullies (but then I grew up and let it go).

All of these are in addition to the ability of Americans to own guns.


Discussions such as this one also frustrate me because the longer it continues, only more problems are found and there is no way to affect a solution by just the people here talking about it.


Another strange beef I've come up with is how Vtech got so much media coverage, and I haven't even heard of this latest one (even though I don't pay attention to media, Vtech was still brought to my attention) It just seems that people don't care until it's shoved under their noses - which could very well be a cause for the shootings, as well.

[Morgoth]

Tarcanus;262236 said:

I personally think that too much emphasis is being placed on guns and how easy it is to get them, in this thread. I'm not saying it's not an important part of it, but every time a root cause is touched on, the conversation gets swayed back to guns.

One poster barely touched on the fact that most violent media has ratings and it is those responsible for enforcing these ratings (parents/vendors) that are a huge part of the problem, as well. Very young children are playing Mature games with no explanation as to why what they're doing in the game is in no way acceptable in real-life. The same goes for violent movies and such. Children should not have access to inappropriately rated media.


It's also possible to bring up the problems of poorly funded schools that are becoming overburdened (as mentioned by someone in this thread, as well).

Then there's the growing problem (it's always been a problem but at least now it's getting attention) of bullying. I know I was pushed around in school and for a long time wanted to get back at the bullies (but then I grew up and let it go).

All of these are in addition to the ability of Americans to own guns.


Discussions such as this one also frustrate me because the longer it continues, only more problems are found and there is no way to affect a solution by just the people here talking about it.


Another strange beef I've come up with is how Vtech got so much media coverage, and I haven't even heard of this latest one (even though I don't pay attention to media, Vtech was still brought to my attention) It just seems that people don't care until it's shoved under their noses - which could very well be a cause for the shootings, as well.

the thing si though, and you all seem to ignore it again and again, that every reason you list here are equally aplicable to the rest of the western world.

[Menandore]

@Morgy - I think the point that they're making is that without all these other reasons, the ownership of guns is meaningless. ie owning guns on its own is not the reason for these shootings. Fair enough but that is the one factor that allows them to happen. Just to repeat Morgoth again - the rest of the developed world suffers from all these problems but it is the guns that are the difference, without them, it wouldn't happen.

I think I'm pretty much done with this topic. It doesn't matter how many different ways I reword the above statement, it just seems people aren't getting it or at least aren't accepting it.

[Tarcanus]

I get it. It just a difference of primary opinion - and the passion in which people keep that opinion - that keeps each side from fully understanding the other. I've no problem with that, so long as my voice was heard.

Though I am curious about family issues in other parts of the world - since I believe that if American parenting could be fixed, we could bounce back from this generation of what seems to be a sea of media/pop culture controlled ignorance and fads.

[Shinrei]

Menandore;262276 said:

@Morgy - I think the point that they're making is that without all these other reasons, the ownership of guns is meaningless. ie owning guns on its own is not the reason for these shootings. Fair enough but that is the one factor that allows them to happen. Just to repeat Morgoth again - the rest of the developed world suffers from all these problems but it is the guns that are the difference, without them, it wouldn't happen.

I think I'm pretty much done with this topic. It doesn't matter how many different ways I reword the above statement, it just seems people aren't getting it or at least aren't accepting it.

Menandore, I think I addressed your points rather directly in my previous post.

I would make the point that owning a gun is somewhat like owning a thought. We police things that people DO, i.e. we arrest people for having stolen a car, NOT for saying to a friend, "man, I'd like to steal that car."

If a man or woman really has a strong desire to kill someone, but they never do it, they are not arrested. Banning guns would be like thought policing. We don't police "potential", but actual acts.

[Optimus Prime]

@Menandore---I agree about the problem being an easy access to guns. What possible need does someone have to need semi-automatic weapons? Or even multiple weapons? So many stupid Americans whine about their "constitutional rights" and bearing arms. Guess what? THAT WAS 232 YEARS AGO!!!! WE WERE AT WAR. I don't have a problem with ownership of a weapon for home protection. But having an arsenal? These people have confidence problems. Now in the state where I'm from (Georgia) they are passing a concealed weapon law where citizens can go around carrying concealed weapons for "protection".

Yeah, that is what we need. Millions of lunatics who think they are mercenaries and bounty hunters and going to save the day.

Idiots.

[Illuyankas]

Well, what's the quick and easy solution - fixing all the contributing factors (VIDEO GAMES ASIDE), or banning guns?

Note I didn't say best solution. I wouldn't be bothered about living in a society that allowed guns if I could trust the members of that society not to use them to kill anyone they wanted to, so easily. The thing is, how is that going to happen?

[Shinrei]

Basically what makes me bristle against the idea of banning guns is the argument essentially boils down to:

"I dont trust people to be responsible, so I want to limit the rights of millions of people in order to stop the rare nutcase."

It's all part of dumbing down of society and making people less responsible for themselves. The truth of the matter is, most people ARE responsible in America with their firearms. If people live in fear of gun violence they're nuts. Just like airline accidents, they get played up by the media and get people afraid to fly, but you're chances of dying in a commercial airline accident and dying from gunman in America are incredibly small.

[amphibian]

Xander;262368 said:

@Menandore---I agree about the problem being an easy access to guns. What possible need does someone have to need semi-automatic weapons? Or even multiple weapons? So many stupid Americans whine about their "constitutional rights" and bearing arms. Guess what? THAT WAS 232 YEARS AGO!!!! WE WERE AT WAR. I don't have a problem with ownership of a weapon for home protection. But having an arsenal? These people have confidence problems. Now in the state where I'm from (Georgia) they are passing a concealed weapon law where citizens can go around carrying concealed weapons for "protection".

Yeah, that is what we need. Millions of lunatics who think they are mercenaries and bounty hunters and going to save the day.

Idiots.

There are quite a few things wrong with your post. Semi-automatics have been heavily restricted for a while now; in most states, if not all, they're restricted to the point where only law enforcement or military can buy them these days.

If someone owns multiple weapons, it's usually because they use them for different tasks (shotgun for ducks, rifle for deer, bigger rifle for moose etc.) or collect them. I hesitate to speculate as to the psychological reasons why they make that choice to own several weapons.

Concealed weapons carriers usually have to go through a LOT more hurdles than regular gun buyers. I'd say the likelihood of you actually having a reason to worry about someone with a legit concealed carry permit is very, very low.

Most gun deaths come from straight murders. Most murderers act upon people they know and most often, it's a really ill advised form of dispute resolution.

Yeah, I see that guns are a part of school shootings, but I don't think it's the primary cause.

[Illuyankas]

@Shin: I agree with you about the plane accident rate, but how small is a 1 in 10,000 chance to be shot to death? Especially compared to pretty much every European nation.