[Flawed]

Xander;259323 said:

More terrible, depressing news.

Another bright young American decided it was a great idea to go on a shooting rampage today. He killed 5 people and himself (of course) at Northern Illinois University this afternoon. He also wounded at least 16 others...some of whom may not survive the night.

Why? What possesses these people to do this? And what the hell can we do to prevent this from happening. It is such a helpless feeling.

I have a friend that attends graduate school there. Thankfully, he wasn't even on campus today. But this is seriously screwed up.

Argh. Stupid world.

Flawless.........

It is mental why it keeps happening. Its not just in America but you seem to hear more cases there then anywhere else.

Is it American society that indirectly breeds this type of people who can go Doo Lally at the flick of a switch? Or is it a fundamental need to be different in a society where everything goes and most things have already been done to death, or thought of, or written about.........? If the only way you can gain notoriety is by going all out mental and shooting up a few people then I'm sure in the millions of people over in America there will be one or two people that are one sandwich short of a picnic, who think its worth it, to just be unique for a while.

I don't know. Its been a while since i last rambled.

Not handsome........

[Mentalist]

gah... I'll be back to write about this in more detail later (after my two grueling exams)

just for illy, tho--the meta-analysis of approximately 40 studies established a correlation b/w exposure to violent media (including video games) and increased level of agression (not necessary violence) that is approximately as strong as the correlation b/w smoking and lung cancer.
Now, OF COURSE, correlation does NOT equal causation (the psychologist's mantra, as much as anything), but still....

[Skywalker]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;259345 said:

My theory is that there's just too many people. The odds are that much higher to produce someone screwed in the head.

I come from India, where we have 3 times the US population crammed into about one third the space. With more people living in poverty, more communal tensions, and a more stressful/ competitive rat race for kids.

But we haven't had a single school shooting.

Why? Because we have no loonies? Of course not... we have our share. We have major rioting, and communal violence and so on about once a year, in one part of the country or another.

What we don't have is loonies with easy access to so many guns.

I can appreciate the right to store a weapon at home, and carry/ use it to defend oneself given a credible threat. I can also appreciate the role of citizen militias as a sort of anti-government bullying thing. So while I don't see the need for a personal weapon myself, I can appreciate the basis of the NRA.

But I really think the NRA are dumb when they say firearms can protect against loonies. I get even more pissed when they say 'violence doesn't need guns... look at Rwanda, where thousands were killed with machetes'. How can you compare homicide with organized genocide???

The fact is mass homicide (such as the latest incident) is easier when you have a gun. The fact is, if you arm enough people, you will end up arming a few psychos.

Finally, I can see the NRA vision of Utopia - every one of us with a holster and spare bullets... but in reality, so long as there is even a small segment of the populace - hell one unarmed person on a college campus, say - it is unsafe to have lethal weapons in the hands of others.

[Gothos]

kud13;259442 said:

just for illy, tho--the meta-analysis of approximately 40 studies established a correlation b/w exposure to violent media (including video games) and increased level of agression (not necessary violence) that is approximately as strong as the correlation b/w smoking and lung cancer.
Now, OF COURSE, correlation does NOT equal causation (the psychologist's mantra, as much as anything), but still....

as far as I see this it could work the other way around just as well. like, aggressive people like to watch violent movies and play violent games. right?


also, on the subject of american gunnings, well. how I see it, the american society is extremely competitive, and the winner takes it all. which means, all the runners-up get shafted in a crude manner. shit happens.
also, in countries where guns are illegal, people like security guards and, more importandly, policemen, have a real advantage over possible attackers and other wrong-doers (I'm not saying there's no guns in Europe tho )
I'm absolutely not surprised.

[Kalahinen]

Sad news, again...

Here in Finland we had our share of school shooting when last fall a high school student shot several fellow students and a teacher in his school with a pistol. In a message he left he commented about his hate for the modern society etc.

In Finland we have the third highest firearm density (in a population of 5,2 million people) in the world, but most murders are still committed with a knife or a similar 'non-firearm'.

[Mentalist]

Gothos;259470 said:

as far as I see this it could work the other way around just as well. like, aggressive people like to watch violent movies and play violent games. right?

correlation done among kids, American kids to be specific.
Here I quote my textbook, lol
"A recent meta-analysis of video-game studies, consisting of both experimental and correlational methods, reports that exposure to violent video games is significantly linked to increases in agressive behavior, agressive cognitions, agressive affect, and physiological araousal, and to decreases in helping behaviour (Anderson, 2004)

the stress here is on exposure, as in, comparing the change in agression levels prior and folowing exposure
Exposure to violent/sexist media has been experimentally proven to prime our behaviour, to act more agressively/more sexist attitudes.

I can also cite a number of cases when ppl related their crimes directly to the exposure to violent media. Of course, that does NOT mean that everyone who's exposed to violent media will snap and go berserk--there are numerous other factors, such as before mentioned frustration. but the facts are that exposure to violent media DOES significantly increase the LIKELYHOOD of agressive/violent behaviour.

[VigoTheCarpathian]

Here's a bit more of a background on the shooter...

It sounds as if he was a fairly normal and successful person who just stopped taking his medication.

Past and recent shootings (notably Columbine and VA Tech) seem to follow the "bitter, crazed loners who didn't fit in or do well in the school environment, and seemed drawn to violence", but this seems to be in a different vein (liked by other students, a graduate-level student).

I hate blaming anything outside of the people themselves (because I hate the way rock music and video games always get lumped in), but it just seems like the heavy media coverage these type of events get leads people who would normally just off themselves to say "Hey, there's another option: instead of being a suicide, which they don't report in the news, I'll take a few people out with me [cuz I'm a piece of crap], and my story will get on the national news, and I'll be a historical footnote."

[Gothos]

oh my. a polish name. my oh my. what have we become?

[RodeoRanch]

I can't even imagine the terror of being in lecture and having some loon walk in and start randomly shooting your classmates. Horrifying.

[Nequam]

Xander;259346 said:

Trust me dude, I HATE the fact it is so easy to get or own a gun here. People here are crazy about their "right" to own any type of weapon. I grew up in the South...and was viewed as very abnormal because my family neither owned a gun or wanted one. I had a neighbor whose father owned

a pistol, numerous types of shotguns, a few semi-automatics...AN AUTOMATIC machine gun (automatic weapons are illegal) and A FREAKING ELEPHANT GUN.

I'm just wondering whether these killers are just missing that piece of their mind that tells normal humans not to do this...or they just snap...and it could happen to anyone?

Wow. That's almost the opposite of my area. I would be living in constant fear...well maybe not fear but I'd always be on edge, if someone lived that close to me with so many lethal weapons.
Personally I can't even think of someone I know who owns a gun. Then again I do live in the fingers lakes region of New York. Which is an area chock full of 'free spirited' folks. Y'know, those modern day hippies.

If I had to decide where all these problems are coming from, I'd say (which most of you agree on apparently) the media, and our easy access to guns. Does the United States really need that right anymore? When they came up with it, the times were just different. The U.S. wasn't incredibly stable and a majority of the population still fed themselves through hunting. Now I don't see why anyone would ever really need a gun. Personally I think we should at least put some serious rescriction on what kind and how many you can have. Or something else I don't know. But this is like what, four in the past year? (that figure isn't at all researched I just put it out there...)

[amphibian]

It's not the easy access to guns.

Of all the school shooting I can remember, I can't recall a case where the shooter actually had an assault rifle, machine gun or elephant gun. It's been mostly shotguns and pistols.

Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter had two pistols - both bought legally.

Assault rifles (semi-automatics) have only been banned since 1994. Right now there's provisions for law enforcement officers and members of the military to have them, but everyone else is pretty much not going to get a new one. Xander's neighbor likely got his before '94 and has been responsible enough to keep his weapons from being involved in anything shady. Or Xander would have told us about The Horrific Event.

I said this before during the V-Tech discussion, but I'll say it again. What's needed is a background check which includes mental health lists. I'm not saying that everyone who's bi-polar or has ADHD should never own guns, but it couldn't hurt to make the person submit a recent check-up by a psych professional or doctor. What would really help is if people could figure out ways to step up and persuade those they see as "probably needing help" (ie. Seung-Hui Cho) to go actually go get help and fix their problems without attaching stigmas or putting the person into a "surrender no ground" mentality.

Skywalker, your argument doesn't hold water. Automobile accidents kill way, way more people than guns, school shootings vs. suicide bombings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Menandore]

amphibian;259522 said:

It's not the easy access to guns.

Of all the school shooting I can remember, I can't recall a case where the shooter actually had an assault rifle, machine gun or elephant gun. It's been mostly shotguns and pistols.

Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter had two pistols - both bought legally.

Don't you understand that that is the whole point? If I wanted to get a gun, any kind of gun, I wouldn't even know where to start. You cannot buy a gun legally here. You have to know the right people and get one from a criminal.

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I said this before during the V-Tech discussion, but I'll say it again. What's needed is a background check which includes mental health lists. I'm not saying that everyone who's bi-polar or has ADHD should never own guns, but it couldn't hurt to make the person submit a recent check-up by a psych professional or doctor. What would really help is if people could figure out ways to step up and persuade those they see as "probably needing help" (ie. Seung-Hui Cho) to go actually go get help and fix their problems without attaching stigmas or putting the person into a "surrender no ground" mentality.

Even with more checks like that guns will still be a hell of a lot easier to get hold of if they are in circulation among the general public. It's also not that easy to spot a killer. A recent example in britain was a schizophrenic whose mental health problems were known and he had medication. He stopped taking his medication and his family practically begged the authorities to have him sectioned. They wanted him locked up because even they could see he was a danger. We have the right laws and regulations in place so that such a person could have been placed in a secure hospital. Nothing was done until he stabbed a girl at random. He stabbed one girl, which was a tragic event but he did not manage to get hold of a gun and shoot 20 people.

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Skywalker, your argument doesn't hold water. Automobile accidents kill way, way more people than guns, school shootings vs. suicide bombings, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

What's your point? We're not talking about how many people get killed by guns vs. accidents. You're comparing apples with oranges. We're talking about the fact that school shootings are starting to happen on a regular basis in America but not in Europe or any other region. You have to compare like with like.

If you say that availability of guns is not the dominant factor in the unusually high occurence of school shootings in the US then what is?

Other possible factors:

- the media, video games, desensitisation to violence.
-- american culture isn't significantly different to european in that respect. We have the same movies, the same video games and especially in this age of the internet we have access to all the same media.

- pressure on young people in college/university.
-- again no different. I grew up in a school environment being told that if I didn't get good grades in high school and go to uni and get a good job then I will have failed in life. We're not any older or better adjusted when we go to uni.

This is not an attack on america or american culture. I understand that it is not simply a case of banning guns, there are already so many in circulation. I also think that your idea of better mental health checks on gun holders would be a very positive step but it wouldn't take away the fact that guns are commonplace in many homes. I just can't see any better candidate for the dominant factor causing these shootings.

[amphibian]

Menandore;259537 said:

It's also not that easy to spot a killer.

The idea is to get to them before they become killers. It's a matter of giving certain people more help to get themselves into positions they are happy to be in.

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What's your point? We're not talking about how many people get killed by guns vs. accidents. You're comparing apples with oranges. We're talking about the fact that school shootings are starting to happen on a regular basis in America but not in Europe or any other region. You have to compare like with like.

Large scale bombings are beginning to happen more and more often in Europe. Why? The same reasons as school shootings seem to be happening more often.

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If you say that availability of guns is not the dominant factor in the unusually high occurence of school shootings in the US then what is?

The dominant factor is people.

"I want to cause some damage and draw lots of attention to me and my dramatic expression of rage, pain and fear. What can I do to achieve those goals? Wait, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris shot up a school and got months worth of national and international coverage. Sounds like a plan."

"I want to cause some damage and draw lots of attention to me and my dramatic expression of rage, pain and fear. What can I do to achieve those goals? Wait, Ali and Hassan blew up crowded trains with backpack explosives and got months worth of national and international coverage. Sounds like a plan."

Kids get stabbed in American schools all the goddamned time. Assault, battery, rape, attempted homicide - it can and does happens in school. During my high school years, there were two stabbings at my school alone. One was with a shank and one was with a knife. You don't hear about those cases internationally because they're not that big of a deal. However, violent crimes have mostly gone down all across the nation. Times Square is clean.

What you're noticing is an increasing uptick in media coverage of violence. Almost as soon as it happens, it gets picked up by the local stations, which kick it to the big national networks and then spread to the international feeds.

The school shootings are the result of public systems that are slowly being overburdened and underfunded, and the inability of families to detach the dreaded stigma of mental health treatment. People don't want to give in and get help because then they're crazy - instead of being people with genuine problems looking for solutions.

[Silencer]

I would just like to point out I have seen the video-type versions of some of those studies.
And yes. When the parents let their SIX YEAR OLD kid play R18!!!! Games, it might lead to people getting a bit of a twisted mentality......
Notice the capitalized parts....

Seriously. The particular one I remember, it was damn obvious that the kids were reading off of a script when they said "I really like it when I kill the cops". It's pathetic. There is a reason some games have RATINGS.

It's the presence of guns in the country that's the problem, not the games.
Or, the stupid parents not reading the ratings.

I can tell the difference between virtual reality (video games), and real life. It's not really that hard. If people can't, then the reason that they can't is the reason for the shooting/insanity. Not the video game itself.
Do you blame the radiation, or the guy in the control room who caused the explosion?? Or the guy who left the door that says "Do not leave open under any circumstances" in big letters, open? (Two separate analogies there).

Hence: Games are not responsible. The people are. Followed by the easy access to guns.

[Menandore]

amphibian;259552 said:

The idea is to get to them before they become killers. It's a matter of giving certain people more help to get themselves into positions they are happy to be in.

Even harder to spot wouldn't you say?

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Large scale bombings are beginning to happen more and more often in Europe. Why? The same reasons as school shootings seem to be happening more often.

Uh....are they? Terrorist activity is nothing new. Ever heard of the IRA? Again, you are changing the subject. Large scale bombings based on political agendas are hardly the same as a messed up kid killing people for personal gains (whether that be the infamy, revenge or no real reason at all). Can you give an example of a large scale bombing with similar motives to a school shooting?

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The dominant factor is people.

"I want to cause some damage and draw lots of attention to me and my dramatic expression of rage, pain and fear. What can I do to achieve those goals? Wait, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris shot up a school and got months worth of national and international coverage. Sounds like a plan."

"I want to cause some damage and draw lots of attention to me and my dramatic expression of rage, pain and fear. What can I do to achieve those goals? Wait, Ali and Hassan blew up crowded trains with backpack explosives and got months worth of national and international coverage. Sounds like a plan."

Kids get stabbed in American schools all the goddamned time. Assault, battery, rape, attempted homicide - it can and does happens in school. During my high school years, there were two stabbings at my school alone. One was with a shank and one was with a knife. You don't hear about those cases internationally because they're not that big of a deal. However, violent crimes have mostly gone down all across the nation. Times Square is clean.

I refer you back to this:

Me said:

- the media, video games, desensitisation to violence.
-- american culture isn't significantly different to european in that respect. We have the same movies, the same video games and especially in this age of the internet we have access to all the same media.

- pressure on young people in college/university.
-- again no different. I grew up in a school environment being told that if I didn't get good grades in high school and go to uni and get a good job then I will have failed in life. We're not any older or better adjusted when we go to uni.

Do you really think people are so different in America? Do you think Britain is a violence-free culture? I went to a "good" school in an affluent rural area. The police visited our school frequently. While I was there, there was a stabbing (the argument was over heroin and I don't know if the girl survived but she certainly spent a good deal of time in intensive care) and I watched my friend's younger brother being beaten about the head with a metal dog lead at the bus stances one night. Those are just two incidents that spring to mind, there were many more. And remember, I'm not talking about an inner city school that has real problems with discipline and violence.

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What you're noticing is an increasing uptick in media coverage of violence. Almost as soon as it happens, it gets picked up by the local stations, which kick it to the big national networks and then spread to the international feeds.

Yes, the international feeds, which are viewed by everone, not just America.

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The school shootings are the result of public systems that are slowly being overburdened and underfunded, and the inability of families to detach the dreaded stigma of mental health treatment. People don't want to give in and get help because then they're crazy - instead of being people with genuine problems looking for solutions.

This still does not account for the high rate of school shootings in America. Mental health has as much stigma attached to it in this country as anywhere else. We are by no means perfect in that respect. A member of my family is currently in hospital, detained under the mental health act. He has been for years because his schizophrenia reached a point where medication wasn't enough to stop him being a danger to himself and others. My family don't even mention his name anymore. I hate that fact and I'm ashamed by it. I think you're absolutely right, the stigma does need to be removed from mental health issues but like I said, it doesn't account for the high rate of school shootings in america.

[amphibian]

Menandore;259563 said:

Even harder to spot wouldn't you say?

Not really. As a teacher, what do you do if you notice a kindergartener having unusual difficulties with reading, what do you do? Test for dyslexia, ADHD and so on. With some work and understanding, that kid can push through and succeed.

If you notice a fourth grader who's shy to the point of reclusivity, overly aggressive, flips out over any transgressions of personal boundaries or has real trouble with expressing strong emotions in an appropriate manner, what do you do? Option A) Turf him over to the guidance counselor who's got 80 kids to work with. Option Keep the others from pissing the kid off too much and move on with the lesson plan. What do the parents do? Most likely, ignore it until something bad happens.

By the time they get to the high school and college level, it's almost too late to stop any potential killers. There are many warning signs that kids with problems will put out long before they act up in a big way.

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Large scale bombings based on political agendas are hardly the same as a messed up kid killing people for personal gains (whether that be the infamy, revenge or no real reason at all).

Why not? Are all bombings performed by those with political agendas?

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Can you give an example of a large scale bombing with similar motives to a school shooting?

IEDs and the newer EFPs in Iraq are not being built by Al-Qaeda alone. They target coalition vehicles, police outposts, crowded marketplaces, schools, busy intersections and other civilian places for all kinds of reasons. Some are indeed politically motivated, most are intended to garner attention and lash out - just like school shootings. I will bet that in five years, as the expertise and techniques migrate, you will be dealing with similar small scale bombings in Europe. France or Turkey will probably be first to experience them. Granted, the munitions are not so plentiful there, but improvisation is the nature of the game.

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Yes, the international feeds, which are viewed by everone, not just America.

The international media will briefly cover it and move on. American media will dwell on this for at least a solid week and inundate us with every detail.

[Nequam]

Silencer;259553 said:

Hence: Games are not responsible. The people are. Followed by the easy access to guns.

Exactly. I think it all starts in childhood. A 'good' parent is vital to create a 'good' citizen. The problem is not everyone can be good parents (There are of course other reasons for the mentally unstable people). So how can these violent acts be combated? Well, they are never going to actually stop IMHO. But serious restrictions on guns would certainly help lower casualties.

I just don't see a need for Americans to possess guns any more. The only real problem that would created by getting rid of them is how we can hunt now. I know most people aren't going to want to use bows...

But how can you just change a right that has been part of America since the very beginning of our country? I ain't got a clue, and I certainly don't think an element of American society can just be changed. At least not easily or fast. If anything it would have to gradual. Making more restrictions as the years go or something.


As for the little debate type thing Menandore and amphibian are having...as a spectator I'm being persuaded to lean more towards Menandore's reasonings. What exactly do you do if you notice problems in kids? Instantly mark him as a possible serial killer? Do you know how many possible serial killers we will then have? What do we do about, medical attention isn't always cheap or even accessible. Do we just keep all of these people's file in a big filing cabinet so when they go to buy a gun we can stop them? I just don't see where you're going with all that.

I do agree with amphibian's remark about the American media. Chances are we'll be hearing about this same shooting for a week or more. First they'll just give us numbers and places. Then start with names of families of the victims and the killer. Then get into why it all happened, how it was planned. What the guy's life was like, who knew him, et cetera...

Then again...I don't live in Europe, so I don't what the media is like there...

[Morgoth]

amphibian;259590 said:

Why not? Are all bombings performed by those with political agendas?

You make is sound like bombings is something that happens here on a regular basis, which goes to show you really have no idea.

And I still cannot see that you've actually explained to any kind of satisfaction how the US differs so markedly from Europe, if gun availability is not the issue.

[Menandore]

Morgoth;259605 said:

You make is sound like bombings is something that happens here on a regular basis, which goes to show you really have no idea.

And I still cannot see that you've actually explained to any kind of satisfaction how the US differs so markedly from Europe, if gun availability is not the issue.

Indeed.

Amphibian, you have completely ignored the last part of my post - the part that actually deals with the subject we're supposed to be debating here. Let me just remind you of the thread title [COLOR=White]"Why do these Assholes keep shooting up our colleges?". Not how should we control the situation so it doesn't happen so often, but WHY is it happening? You still haven't given a better explanation than easy access to guns. Well, you did but then I pointed out that the situation of violence in schools etc is no different across the atlantic.

I don't completely disagree with the ideas of trying to control guns more and have better mental health checks. It is probably the most workable solution.

[/COLOR said:

Nequam]I just don't see a need for Americans to possess guns any more. The only real problem that would created by getting rid of them is how we can hunt now. I know most people aren't going to want to use bows...

But how can you just change a right that has been part of America since the very beginning of our country? I ain't got a clue, and I certainly don't think an element of American society can just be changed. At least not easily or fast. If anything it would have to gradual. Making more restrictions as the years go or something.

I am not naïve enough to think that you can just get rid of all the guns and then problem solved. That's not what I'm trying to say here. It just seems obvious that the guns are the root cause and so far I still haven't seen a better explanation.

[Skywalker]

A few points I thought of as I was reading through this thread...

1) Not to go into Tom Cruise's Scientology dogma, but has any one looked at how medication/ stopping to use medication is a factor here? Could America have more shootings in part because of an over-reliance on mind altering drugs? I mean I can't imagine taking a Prozac or some such to alter how I feel. If I'm stressed out, I take a walk, a nap or whatever. I'm not saying there aren't seriously sick people that need medication - just wondering if popping pills has become just too easy.

2) Someone said stuff like "America has overburdened systems" "there is too much competition" etc.

I don't buy that - America has way less competition and WAY better infrastructure than most parts of the world. It also has the most gun violence outside Africa (I think - no objective evidence seen as such)!