[Aristai]

caladanbrood, on 09 April 2010 - 05:21 PM, said:

Gothos, on 08 April 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

do you tip at McD/KFC? why not?

I still want this to be answered, I'm interested in hearing any reasoning behind it.

Basicly it's considered self-serv..You go up to the counter place and order, pay, and get handed a tray or a take-out bag. Want your drink refilled? Do it yourself, ect.

That's the simple logic behind it.

Now from a labour perspective, at least in the Province of Ontario, it's a little different. Minimum wage in Ontario was just raised last week to $10.25. Up 75 cents from $9.50 an hour.

Quote

However, restaurant wait staff and bartenders who serve alcohol as part of their jobs receive less than the regular minimum wage under provincial law because it's expected they receive tips.

Their pay hike is rising by the same percentage, but only to $9.60 an hour from $8.90.

http://www.thestar.c...nimum-wage-hike

[Macros]

$9.60 an hour, translates to about £7?
I'm pretty poor with current rates and the like. But to hell if I'm tipping 10-15% on every round when they're earning over the minimum here

[Aristai]

To be fair, Ontario now has the highest minimum wage level in the country. As for the U.S., minimum wage tends to be much lower depending on the state, with even a few not bothering with it all. Case in point, Wyoming's is $5.15. $2.13 if you're recieving tips. Florida is much better at $7.25 a hour. $4.19 for tipped employees.

[Anomander]

I'm appalled that Ontario is actually paying lower than minimum wage to servers/bartenders/etc. I didn't think that was legally allowed?

@Macros: $9.60 CDN translates to about £6.21.

[Terez]

When I was a server, I got paid around $3 an hour (and this was not too long ago), and I only made that much because of seniority; I started out at $2.14. And Maccy...it's not just bringing you your food. It's making sure you have everything you need to go with that food, including refilling your drinks and cleaning up after you. Most nice restaurants have bussers, but they get a cut of the servers' tips, and also, when I was a server we had to not only clean our own tables but also wash our own dishes.

This post has been edited by Terez: 10 April 2010 - 01:16 AM

[Shinrei]

Mac, what you keep obstinately ignoring is this:

Go to US restaurant where the waiter makes less than minimum wage. You pay $20 for a steak and leave a $3.00 tip (15%).

The US changes it's labor laws and now the waiter makes minimum wage. You pay $23 MENU PRICE for that steak because the restaurant raised prices to cover the new wage costs. Money is the same. Stop whinging.


Also, I've worked in 3 different restaurants, and I, and my co-workers, always made more than minimum wage. I would much rather work for tips than for minimum wage. If the restaurant is ridiculously busy, you're cursing and swearing because you're running your ass off, but you KNOW that the money is going to be really really good because it's so busy.

If you're working for a wage, then you hope the restaurant never gets busy. Because it's much nicer to make the same money for a lot less work.

[Yellow]

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on 09 April 2010 - 04:48 PM, said:

Here's a funny little story. Tipping is so ingrained into our culture, NOT tipping has become a vacation activity. Go to the all-inclusive resorts in mexico, Jamaica, HAwaii, and other such places. Often it is policy there that since it is all-inclusive tipping is strictly forbidden. Employees will be fired for accepting a tip. Th econcept of going to a bar and getting a drink without leaving a tip at these places is strange enough to us that I've heard many people specifically mention the novelty of it when discussing their vacation.

I don't have anything groundbreaking to add here, but thought I'd add my experience. I went to Cancun last summer to an all-inclusive, and even then the Americans tended to tip for every drink they ordered. I would guess it seemed to be a minimum of a dollar per order, sometimes a few dollars if it was a big round. It did seem pretty strange to us (we're from the UK, if anyone didn't know), because you've already paid for the drinks and the service in the price of the hotel. Considering how many drinks you'll need during the day in Mexico (whether it's water, coke, beer, cocktails or whatever) I imagine it added up to a lot of money over the holiday, I'm guessing about $15 US a day.

Of course, most of the US folk didn't seem to stay longer than a week whereas we were there for two, so maybe because they would have paid less for the flights and total hotel bill, they still saw it as a bargain. Oddly, we still tipped every night for the food, even though that was already paid for, and at the end of the two weeks we gave some money to a couple of the decent bar staff, but nowhere near as much as they would have had if we'd tipped after every drink. They must have thought we were a couple of tight-arses (maybe we are), but it seemed wrong to keep paying for every drink when all drinks had been paid for already. I guess that's my point - to us in the UK, we see bartending as not something you generally tip for, but food you do, even when it's a buffet! I have no idea how much the US folk tipped for food, but if they tipped a dollar for a drink, it must have been quite a lot.


edit - ooh, and a question for the Americans. When did the term "server" become so prevalent? It seems from this thread, plus when I spent a little time in the states, that "server" has become the preferred term over "waiter/waitress". What's that about? I would have thought that "server" was a more derogatory term, since it has echoes of "servant".

This post has been edited by Yellow: 10 April 2010 - 07:48 AM

[Terez]

It's just easier to have a gender-neutral term, and it also has more professional connotations than 'waiter' or 'waitress' (which has echoes of waiting on someone hand and foot).

[HoosierDaddy]

Meh, I think of them as a waiter or waitress. Their title might be "Server" but that's kind of like changing secretary to executive assistant. It changes a previously predominantly female occupied position into a neutral gender titled one.

Actually, I don't even think about the title. I only care about the service.

[Gothos]

So, you don't tip the people that actually also need it tonnes due to low wages, and frankly your reasoning doesn't seem... reasonable at all.

[HoosierDaddy]

Gothos, on 10 April 2010 - 08:12 AM, said:

So, you don't tip the people that actually also need it tonnes due to low wages, and frankly your reasoning doesn't seem... reasonable at all.

And that would be whom? The workers at fast food restaurants? They receive a federal minimum wage, as opposed to those we know who receive, generally, 33% of the federal minimum wage. And, it's unfair we tip those who are paid less to give us service as those who are paid more to push buttons and give us a total? That's not reasonable?

Frankly, tipping IS an option. If you have a bad server, then there are quite a few people here who'll not tip. I've been out with them when it happened. I was embarrassed, but it's their money they are paying, not mine, so I don't really have a say.

[Gothos]

you pay fastfood people more than regular local place people? that's something new

[Terez]

Gothos, on 10 April 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

you pay fastfood people more than regular local place people? that's something new

Only servers who make tips can be paid less than minimum wage. So, fast food people don't make tips, and they get paid minimum wage (or maybe a little more). People who work at real restaurants with dine-in table service make tips, and are paid well below minimum wage by the employer, but generally end up making a good bit more than fast food employees.

Oh, and one thing that was totally weird when I was in Vienna....there are no garbage cans at McDonald's! Like, they come around and bus tables for you, and you're just supposed to leave your junk on the table or something. So weird.

This post has been edited by Terez: 10 April 2010 - 10:48 AM

[Yellow]

It's considered polite (I suppose) to clear up your own shit in McDonald's over here, but it's not catastrophe-time if you don't. I used to work at the Big D, and if you're unlucky enough to work as host/hostess, you just see it as part of your job to clear up after people. It actually gives you something to do other than mop around people.

God, it was a terrible Saturday if you got stuck working on the till, but actually working in the restaurant area was suicide-inducing.

This post has been edited by Yellow: 10 April 2010 - 12:08 PM

[Terez]

Yes, but the lack of garbage cans was just strange. Those make it much easier to clean up after yourself....hell, they'd make it easier for the staff to clean up after people in the lobby. Is it just an aesthetics thing? Don't like garbage cans in the dining area?

[Yellow]

Maybe it's an anti-terrorist thing? Probably not, but plenty of public places over here (particularly London train and tube stations) don't have bins any more.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Yeah, the McDonalds at Liverpool St Station has no bins either, presumably due to that. I know there aren't many litter bins in the City in general as an anti-terrorist policy (we learned from the IRA, y'see), and those that are in place are generally horrendously expensive bomb-proof ones. The City's policy is that they'd rather pay for street sweepers to go around cleaning up than take the risk, although you're not supposed to litter in any case.

As has been previously mentioned, I think the entire disagreement here stems from a cultural difference to the understanding of what tipping is. To Americnas, it is a given, and just what you do, so no big thing. From what I understand, it's not tied massively to the service quality - you tip regardless, and then extra if they excel. In Europe, tipping is strictly optional and purely a reward, so we find it difficult to grasp the concept of tipping someone regardless. However, as what we both mean by "tipping" is actually slightly different, I think the argument is definitely going at cross-purposes here. It's like how braces means something different in the UK to what it does in the US, we don't then all argue about what braces really should do.

[caladanbrood]

 The idea that people can be paid less than a legally-set minimum wage is what really stumps me. 

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 12 April 2010 - 04:31 PM

[Sindriss]

Yeah, I am surprised at how seemingly acceptable it is that those employees get paid below minimum wage. Can't they claim the lost money per hour after they quit/fired, assuming they have documented the total hours working?

[Jusentantaka]

Sindriss, on 12 April 2010 - 08:15 PM, said:

Yeah, I am surprised at how seemingly acceptable it is that those employees get paid below minimum wage. Can't they claim the lost money per hour after they quit/fired, assuming they have documented the total hours working?

People try it now and again, however its in the minimum wage laws that tipped positions do not need to be at minimum wage. Or in some places for any wage whatsoever beyond the tips themselves, though that's not real common except in 500$ a person places where a waiter working 30-40 hours a week will make well into the 6 figure range in a year.

This post has been edited by Jusentantaka: 12 April 2010 - 08:26 PM