[Macros]

Its not a question of having the money for a tip, its the questin of americans seeming to expect it as customary, whereas in europe its voluntary, based on good service

[Shinrei]

Macros;281585 said:

i'm with ashaman and baudin, expecting tipping to make up shitty wages is bad policy by the employer, that is my main problem with the tipping "culture" if the wages are bad, get a different job, if you do a fantastic job like xander suggest he does then a tip is likely to be forthcoming, but just expecting for doing your job is annoying.
A tip is for excellence, doing more than you have to to accomodate the person you are serving.

Again, please address what I wrote before:


"Tipping = power to the consumer and power to the service staff to make better money! Explain to me how this doesn't make sense?!!"

Also AGAIN, the tip is "expected" if the service is good! If it is not, give a low tip or none at all.

I guess you guys/gals like the idea that customers should automatically pay higher prices in restaurants and that everyone who works a part time job should make minimum wage.

Shinrei's formula -----------------------------------
Employer pays employees less and can offer attractive prices for customers = win for employer

Employee has excellent potential to make better than minimum wage = win for employee

Customer saves on restaurant prices and can directly decide how much to share that savings with the service or not = win for the customer.

Macros ashaman baudin's formula-------------------
Employer pays more money to employees and has to charge higher prices as a result = lose

Employee makes only minimum wage = lose

Customer has no choice but to pay higher restaurant prices = lose


Regardless of how you define the word "tip", these are the points no one is addressing.

[Macros]

We're discussion where tipping is expected, regardless of service, I agree tipping is required where servic eis excellent.
I think we're getting wires crossed somewhere, the arguement someone made for tipping was that america service staff get shocking wages, so they NEED tips to get by, this is irresponsible of the employer and unfair on the employee, they should get enough from their job without tips, tips are a bonus for excellent service, I don't jsut mean flashing a smile I mean proper good service. I'm not going to throw out a 20% tip in a bar just because the barman was polite for a few beers, its no hassle for him in the slightest, the oppourtunity for him to wow me is limited, if i order somethign that makes him work and hes still polite then hes earned a tip for himself.

[Shinrei]

Macros, I agree, wires are crossed. I'm arguing that the system of tipping, instead of wages, makes logical sense.

I'm arguing that by the logic of this system, it IS responsible of the employer to allow their server to live on tips, and it is FAIR to the employee to depend on them.

In the system there is impetus for the employer to lower prices, more power for the employee to make GOOD money, and more power to the customer to get cheaper food and decide how much they want to tip!

I'm presenting the logic of the tipping culture, and you keep countering with

"but my definition of the word 'tip' is ______", which frankly is irrelevent to the point I'm making.



And as an aside, in the US the tipping thing is really only for wait staff. Tipping bartenders is entirely on the whim of the customer and it is not necessarily expected.

[Optimus Prime]

caladanbrood;281589 said:

Xander - I suspect though, if someone has enough money to stay at that sort of hotle/resort type place, then they have enough money to spare for a tip

Being wealthy, sadly Brood, doesn't guarantee good tipper.

Often times, the richest are the cheapest

[Macros]

you dont get rich by throwing money around.

I'm not trying to counter your arguement with a straw man shinrea I really just don't argee with it and am terrible at articulating my thoughts in a coherent fashion, somewhere between my brain and my mouth/fingers the ideas go through a moronifier, making me look even more foolish.

What if (hypothetically) there was anational no tipping week for some obscenely ridiculous reason, your waiting staff are buggered. I know its a ridiculous scenario but just say it happened, its..impractical? to expect someon to live of others generousity, a set wage that is respectable is a far sounder way forward.

[Shinrei]

Sigh, I guess I'm not getting through.

I'll just leave it then. I guess I will just have to resign myself to stay in my unrespectable disreputable job, which I won't quit because it unfortunately tempts me with its evil tip money.

If I made a wage at the restaurant, say, $15 an hour, that means I would make $60 on most nights since I work 4 hours. At the moment, if I go home with $60 in tips it was a rather poor night with not many customers. Besides, there is no way a restaurant would pay their wait staff a whopping $15 an hour. My guess is, the pay would be more around $8.00, in which case I would have to drop out of graduate school because there is no way I could support myself on that.

In my previous posts, I forgot the most important relationship, i.e. my own stake in things.

Tips = Shinrei can go to school and still afford his apartment and food.

[ch'arlz]

Shinrei no Shintai;282826 said:

Besides, there is no way a restaurant would pay their wait staff a whopping $15 an hour. My guess is, the pay would be more around $8.00,

it's the system in the U.S. and i have no idea how it could be changed, whatever the merits of alternatives. when i first became a wage-earner back in the 1970's, 10% was considered reasonable if the eatery had cloth napkins. now it's 20% no matter what. that's not to say everyone does it. my daughter works parttime in a restaurant to help pay for her expenses and she will get customers who will leave $5 on a $100+ bill.

[Dr Trouble]

I owuld love to read all the other comments, but have no time so I'll just add my two cents (haha).

Here in Australia, I have never tipped or been tipped. And I worked as a waiter for a year. And I was fucking good; People loved me.

I just don't see it as part of the way things are. I got paid $18 and hour, why should people give me more money for doing my job properly?

I can understand in america and other places how different it can be with the wages and stuff; But I'll never tip someone for doing there job. The only time i'll ever give extra money is if I'm feeling sorry for a waiter and they have been super nice, bordering on a lap dance (Which so far has never happened because people are natural cunts ).

[Macros]

I think its just a vast culture difference between yankke doodler land and everywhere else.
Its not my concern what the waiter earns, hes in a job, do it, if hes super nice i might feel obligated to give him a little something extra for himself.
20% is a bit outrageous, if i was settling a £100 bill I'm sure as hell not going to throw another £20 out there unless the waitress gave my pole a thorough polishing.

[Shinrei]

Yeah. Despite my explanation of the logic of tipping (which still hasn't been addressed by anyone), I'm not sure why this happened in the US. Waitering is the only vocation where tipping is the norm and expected. Everywhere else it is something extra. Hotel service, bar tending, coffee shops, etc. are just extra if you're feeling generous, and we don't tip other service positions like department store clerks or McDonalds employees. Why only waiters? I don't know.

All I know is, I'm a waiter because as a part timer I can make better money (at my current restaurant) than at those other jobs.

Edited to add, I just remembered that it's actually customary to tip taxi drivers. Hmm, waiters AND taxi drivers. I wonder what happened historically that made this the case...

[Macros]

i dont argue with your theory, nor the logic behind it, i just dont agree with the idea that tipping is "expected" in the states, it shouldnt be.
When I'm paying my bill in the restaurant I'm paying for the food, the cooking of the food and the serving of the food, I'm paying to have to do none of that shit myselg. Ergo when I pay for food I am paying you for serving me, a tip is something extra if you did your job fanatastically. If the food was spectacular I'll make a point of leaving a tip for the chef, and I'll say its for the chef, or if its a split tip establishment I'll make sure to tell the waiting staff to pass my compliments to the chef and throw a tip in the jar.
I only tip a taxi driver if hes had to put up with a load of shit from the drunken passengers. if he has to do extra milage the meters running, why the fuck would i tip him?

[Shinrei]

Why don't you just think of it differently then? It's a conceptual difference.

Just look at it as the bill = cost of food, cooking food, restaurant space/rent and the tip is the service part. Therefore the cost is the same, it's just that you have to do math.

In Ireland, service is figured into the price of the food automatically, so it's not like you're paying more to tip in the states. It must be doing the math that you're objecting to.

[Macros]

no, if it was part of the cost, it would be on the listed price, expecting a tip is like putting a stealth tax on something.

[Shinrei]

See! This is what people don't get about running a business!

When the employer doesn't have to pay waiters full wage, the cost of their product is cheaper. Now I know one of the reasons restaruants cost double in the UK what it costs in the US.

[caladanbrood]

We just have a properly enforced minimum wage:)

[Shinrei]

Which, again, is why everything is more expensive in the UK.

What people dont realize, and why I'm personally against raising the federally mandated minimum wage, is that while you "help" some people, you actually hurt everyone.

Companies very carefully calculate their costs, so when the minimum wage goes up, so do the prices of goods and services by companies that pay minimum wage. That means, while some poor people "benefit" from higher wages, ooops! Their money (and everyone else's) doesn't purchase as much any more.

Minimum wage raises also increases inflation.

[caladanbrood]

Our inflation dropped quarter of a percent recently, at the same time as a minimum wage rise:eek:

I understand your point there, but it's basically relying on charity, and that's not really a reliable basis for an economy;) At least not over here. Besides, if people get paid less than the minimum wage in the US, what would be the point of raising it? They'd still get paid less.

[Obdigore]

caladanbrood;283552 said:

Our inflation dropped quarter of a percent recently, at the same time as a minimum wage rise:eek:

I understand your point there, but it's basically relying on charity, and that's not really a reliable basis for an economy;) At least not over here. Besides, if people get paid less than the minimum wage in the US, what would be the point of raising it? They'd still get paid less.

Because waiters are the only group of people that can legally be allowed to paid less than the minimum wage, because with their nightly tips, they should make it up.

If the minimum wage is 10$ an hour. And you make 5$ an hour in tips on average, your employer cannot pay you less than 5$ an hour.

[caladanbrood]

So, if someone had no tips, would the employer have to pay them $10?