[Urb]

We had a similar discussion before (the chancelor didn't inherit any errant powers).
Personally I've come to the conclusion that both parents have to be 'special', in order for the 'good genes' to pass on to the offspring. Rud Elalle was a product of a soletaken Eleint, and a wyval(sp?)infected mortal man.

[Wry]

Well the quote by Sukul Ankhadu from RG "Rud Elalle was a true child of Menandore. A Soletaken" seems to imply that the offspring of a soletaken eleint should gain that ability, so i'm doubting the wyval has anything to do with it.

The point i was making was that does this mean we can distinguish between two different types of soletaken. The blood drinkers, like the dragons, who can pass on the ability to off spring that share their blood. and others who obtain it through magic perhaps or ritual, i.e. bonecasters, FEers, buke etc.

[Urb]

Rake's children are not soletaken (not the ones we know of anyway).
As I see it, the wyval was important to the process. Otherwise Menandore wouldn't have made such a big deal of Udinaas accepting the wyval blood.

But I see what you're saying.

[Skywalker]

Urb;257235 said:

Rake's children are not soletaken (not the ones we know of anyway).
As I see it, the wyval was important to the process. (snip)

Nimander Golit is actually the son of Anomander Rake and Lady Envy - both soletaken. Envy never took her draconean form in MOI, but from Spite veering into a dragon in TB, we can assume she can as well...

So Nimander has every reason to be soletaken but isn't (far as we know).

Wry;257223 said:

Well the quote by Sukul Ankhadu from RG "Rud Elalle was a true child of Menandore. A Soletaken" (snip)

Now, what does "True Child" mean, I wonder. Is it any different from - er - untrue child? Do soletaken have more than one way to procreate? Or am I reading too much into an innocent sentence?

[Urb]

Skywalker;257241 said:

Nimander Golit is actually the son of Anomander Rake and Lady Envy - both soletaken. Envy never took her draconean form in MOI, but from Spite veering into a dragon in TB, we can assume she can as well...

So Nimander has every reason to be soletaken but isn't (far as we know).

You are mistaken my friend. Lady Envy was the mother of Phaed. Anomander Rake was the father of Nimander. Lady Envy took Nimander as her lover in order to piss off Anomander Rake. This information was granted us by Braven Tooth in the Bonehunters.

[thesalus]

I took it as meaning worthy of being called her son. As opposed to Nimander, who doesn't exhibit quite so many of his father's or mother's badassery.

And here's a related but not particularly helpful quote from Sormo:

Quote

'And so it was,' the warlock cut in. 'Is there a blending between shapeshifting and Elder Tellann? Unknown. Perhaps the D'ivers and Soletaken are simply passing through the warren—imagining it unoccupied by T'lan Imass and therefore safer. Indeed, no T'lan Imass to take umbrage with the trespass, leaving them with only each other to battle.'

[Aptorian]

Are you sure about this? Because the Draconean tree tells us that both Faed and Nimander were Rake and Envys children and I'm sure both Phaed and Nimander are mentioned as being children of Rake.

[Quick~]

Skywalker;257241 said:

Now, what does "True Child" mean, I wonder. Is it any different from - er - untrue child? Do soletaken have more than one way to procreate? Or am I reading too much into an innocent sentence?

I think you are reading a bit much into it.

I sort of took that as something akin to soletaken pride. As if Sukul wouldn't have considered a child Menandore had had a true child if they weren't actually a soletaken.

It'd be interesting to see how a soletaken might react to a non-soletaken born of soletaken parents. Whether they are shunned as something of a faliure within the soletaken "family" (well certainly within the eleint soletaken group).

[Skywalker]

Urb;257252 said:

You are mistaken my friend. Lady Envy was the mother of Phaed. Anomander Rake was the father of Nimander. Lady Envy took Nimander as her lover in order to piss off Anomander Rake. This information was granted us by Braven Tooth in the Bonehunters.

Urb - I was basing my comment on the draconean family tree by Baruk as Apt says... http://encylopaediam...ian+Family+Tree

Envy did take Nimander as her lover to piss Rake off, but he was her own son.

As the Cat may say, another skanky ho...

EDIT:

thesalus;257254 said:

I took it as meaning worthy of being called her son. As opposed to Nimander, who doesn't exhibit quite so many of his father's or mother's badassery.

That's a reasonable explanation...

[Urb]

Aptorian;257255 said:

Are you sure about this? Because the Draconean tree tells us that both Faed and Nimander were Rake and Envys children and I'm sure both Phaed and Nimander are mentioned as being children of Rake.

It does? Are you sure it doesn't just say that Phaed is the daughter of Lady Envy, and Nimander is the son of Anomander Rake?

Guess I might be wrong... I'll go check for a quote.

[Aptorian]

[attach]4273[/attach]

[Wry]

Hasn't it been said in the book that the family tree is only of several versions by baruk and is of dubious accuracy? or am i imagining that?

[Aptorian]

I don't think the tree is ever mentioned in the book, rather it has been discussed on the forum. Supposedly there was supposed to be 2 others, and all three were supposed to be put in the books appendix, only they never made it for some reason.

There are problems, like the EGs mentioned all have an obvious connection and the no father or mother deal with Osserc and the three brothers dark.

[Urb]

the Bonehunters bantam paperback page 1006 said:

'No, they ain't. See the tallest one there, with the long white hair. His name is Nimander Golit. And that pretty woman beside him, that's Phaed, his first daughter. All seven of'em are cousins, sisters, brothers, but it's Nimander who leads, since he's the oldest. Nimander says he is the first son of the Son.'
'The what?'
'The son of Darkness, Banaschar. Know who that is? That's Anomander Rake. Look at 'em, they're all Rake's brood - grandchildren mostly, except for Nimander, who's father to a lot of 'em, but not all. Now, maybe someone's got a hate on for foreigners - you really think that someone would be stupid enough to go after the whelps of Anomander Rake?'
Banaschar turned slightly, stared over at the figures. He slowly blinked, then shook his head. 'Not unless they're suicidal.'
'Right, and that's something you'd know all about, ain't it?'
'So, if Anomander Rake is Nimander's father, who was the mother?'
'Ah, you're not completely blind, then. You can see, can't you? Different mothers, for some of 'em. And one of those mothers wasn't no Tiste Andii, was she? Look at Phaed-'
'I can only see the back of her head.'
'Whatever. I looked at her, and I asked her that very same question you asked me.'
'What?'
'"Who was your mother?"'
'Mine?'
'And she smiled - and I nearly died, Banaschar, and I mean it. Nearly died. Bursting blood vessels in my brain, toppling over nearly died. Anyway, she told me, and it wasn't no Tiste Andii kind of name, and from the looks of her I'd say the other half was human, but then again, can you really tell with these things? Not really.'
'No, really, what was the name?'
'Lady Envy, who used to know Anomander Rake himself, and got her revenge taking his son as a lover. Messy, eh? But if she was anything like that Phaed there, with that smile,well, envy's the only word - for every other woman in the world. Gods below... hey, Banaschar, what's wrong? You suddenly look really sick. The ale's not that bad, not like we had last night, anyway. Look, if you're thinking of fillin' a plate on the tabletop, there ain't no plate, right? And the boards are warped, and that means it'll sluice onto my legs, and that'll get me very annoyed - for Hood's sake, man, draw a damned breath!'

Well... That was confusing.

But I would never have thought Lady Envy to sleep with her own son. Not that delicate dame, no way. I refuse to believe it. She's a sweet flower she is.

EDIT: My theory (both parents need to be 'special' in order for the 'special genes' to pass on) still stands as long as Rake and Envy didn't make one of these buggers together. Kind of hard to decipher it though.

[Urb]

So the Draconian Family Tree has dubious origins, eh?
While my source is from the books.
I'll take that as a sign that I was absolutely right.

I WIN, wohoo!

[pastures]

Phaed is Envy's daughter. But it's dubious, for now, whether Nimander is Envy's son. The question is who is Rake's first lover?

Anyway, good quote thesalus. it shows that there is a definite link between Imass and shapeshifters but the exact workings of this are still unknown. Only Olar Ethil (or some other bonecaster maybe) would know for sure.

[D'rek]

What happens if two D'ivers mate with each other multiple times, simultaneously? ie: Ryllandaras has 6 of his wolves mate with six iterations of {female d'ivers here}. Do they have hextuplets by default?

[Wry]

Aptorian;257273 said:

I don't think the tree is ever mentioned in the book, rather it has been discussed on the forum. Supposedly there was supposed to be 2 others, and all three were supposed to be put in the books appendix, only they never made it for some reason.

There are problems, like the EGs mentioned all have an obvious connection and the no father or mother deal with Osserc and the three brothers dark.

Ao if it's not from the books then where's it from, apart from the forum? i.e. how can we judge it's accuracy?

[Thelomen Toblerone]

pastures;257436 said:

Phaed is Envy's daughter. But it's dubious, for now, whether Nimander is Envy's son. The question is who is Rake's first lover?

Perhaps it's Spite? That would explain alot of the emnity between the two...:D

[Wry]

Actually i should probably have just checked for myself

Quote

Note that this Family Tree is not 100% correct, and should be considered the opinion of an unreliable character rather than the direct word of the author.

I think i'm inclined to believed banascher's passage than the family tree over the envy issue. I do like the spite suggestion though