[D'rek]

Kinda makes you wonder who the first mortal(s) they tried to put on the throne were. Evidently before the human FE came about.

[pastures]

kud13;256197 said:

ummm...
Urko, Telann wasn't always the warren of dust. it used to be something else. besides, once again, I point out the Eleint Soletaken--how do they fif into the picture?
As for Imass--obviously, they were alive, don't forget, they essentially stopped growing after the Ritual, so they wouldn't get any more Bonecasters, since they utlived their Gods.
I donn't believe that Soletakenness is a unique phenomena. I don't see enough proof for it.
BTW, Paran is "spicy"... it was mentioned here before... check in MoI when Qb sees him fighting the demon-condor...

I thought Paran's case was more of the "inner beast" emerging from within him. I kind of envisage a superimposition of a Hound on Paran's body so you see both, but they merge at the eyes. Kind of a pseudo-veer.

As for Soletaken in other races, that is the only way it makes sense to me. Shapechanging is not unique to any one race, but rather to beings who can use magic. So obviously it makes sense that K'rul would be able to create Soletakens and also that the ability is older than the warrens. To me it's not a warren per se, but similar to a warren in that it's a path of magic. soletaken --> d'ivers --> the Blob

The link between the Imass and the FE then comes about bcos the first Soletaken is Olar Ethil, so she becomes like the Queen of Shapechanging (K'rul is the King?), so all Soletaken/D'ivers are walking the path that she first forged.

[Venerus]

I just wanted to correct an error I made -- apparently, Paran is *not* a soletaken, according to QB:

p. 677 of the US PB MoI:
"Quick Ben stared, disbelieving, as the two figures thrashed in battle. Paran was almost invisible within a writhing, shadow-woven Hound. Not a Soletaken -- not a veering. These are two creatures -- man and beast -- woven together... somehow. And the power behind it -- it's Shadow. Kurald Emurlahn.


I'm of the opinion that QB would know, especially considering his familiarity with Shadow and the Soletaken soul inside of him. He might be wrong, of course.

As for Trout/Moby, Iskaral Pust calls him a Soletaken numerous times while they're on the fake path of hands. He might be using the term loosely or misguiding people or something else, but I don't think he has much reason to lie at that point. Of course, that's usually when he's lying the mostest.

[Zanth13]

now correct me if i am wrong i thought moby turned out to be some sort of demon...I am pretty sure he did any way.... that is why he could be a guardian of the azath, he was pretty powerful...

i think he might have even been fighting off the dvers and soltaken to help protect the group(not in the open of course) but its been a while since i read the books so I cant say for sure.

so any shapeshifting abilities he had would come from being what ever race of demon he was and not the same magic as soletaken (imo)

[Aptorian]

Just some points.

TTT do not exist any longer (at least that we know) none of the giant people we've seen or heard of come close to the description of a TTT. And TTT are much older than the Imass that only emerged around the time of the Tiste Exodus.

Soletaken would logically be connected to the Beast Warren and as such, Soletaken are OLD. Togg and Fancy aren't soletaken they are ascendant beasts. Worshipped by the Imass once, but not connected to any other race we've known.

[Wry]

pastures;256254 said:

As for Soletaken in other races, that is the only way it makes sense to me. Shapechanging is not unique to any one race, but rather to beings who can use magic. So obviously it makes sense that K'rul would be able to create Soletakens and also that the ability is older than the warrens. To me it's not a warren per se, but similar to a warren in that it's a path of magic. soletaken --> d'ivers --> the Blob

Well again, barring the eleint who get their shapeshifting through one very specific source - drinking Tiam's blood, what other races have we seen as soletaken? Imass obviously. Humans too, a direct decendant of the imass (i'm taking that as a given - see the evolution thread) and moby, a demon who's race and life we know nothing about. No soletaken among the jhagut, TTT, k'chain, tiste (who don't turn into dragons) that i can recall.

This indicated to me that it was an especially imass/human phenomenon, and logically it originated with the imass.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

I must admit I'm particularly thrown, thinking back, about Moby's soletaken status. The other demons we've seen (Kendryll'ah, Aptorians, the one in GotM) don't seem to really have that sort of capacity, of course there's not much evidence, but it just seems that becoming soletaken isnt the sort of thing they'd focus on. But, that aside, the key thing is, why as a powerful, mighty, ascendant demon, would you think "oh ok, I'll change to a Bhoka'rala and sit in a guy's office as his familiar for 50 years, in the hope that something will come up taking me to a possible path of hands?"

Doesnt seem to make much sense really to me.

[Wry]

I'd kind of assumed it was more a summoning pact type thing. Baruk summoned and constrained/ bargained with this powerful demon to gain his obvious protection. the Little monkey thing was just his cover can't wander the streets a honking great demon perched on your shoulder right? Baruk then sends him off to looka after cutter, baruk dies lifting the geas (or whatever constraints moby had on him) and he uses the opportuinity to walk the path of hands.

[pastures]

Wry;256399 said:

Well again, barring the eleint who get their shapeshifting through one very specific source - drinking Tiam's blood, what other races have we seen as soletaken? Imass obviously. Humans too, a direct decendant of the imass (i'm taking that as a given - see the evolution thread) and moby, a demon who's race and life we know nothing about. No soletaken among the jhagut, TTT, k'chain, tiste (who don't turn into dragons) that i can recall.

This indicated to me that it was an especially imass/human phenomenon, and logically it originated with the imass.

Well i assume that just as there are many paths to ascendancy, there are many paths to shapechanging (as evidenced by the First Empire). Drinking Tiam's blood is essentially drinking incarnate magic. Also, i mentioned in an earlier post that you probably have to "identify" with the form you are changing into, and that one of the easiest ways to do that is by drinking their blood. That is how i believe the Imass did it, which is why they wear the hides of their Soletaken form (probably bcos they killed it and drank its blood). Further, Olar Ethil changes into a dragon. How? Through drinking Tiam's blood. So there is no difference between Imass/Human Soletakens and Tiste Soletakens. In short, this all suggests that it is a path that magic users can take if so desired and if the requisite power is there.

The Jaghut, TTT and KCCM didn't need to shapechange at all. Their lifestyle was enough for them without having to adopt a different form. What form would they change into? They were each the rulers of the world. The only form worth changing into was dragons, but even then they despised them. Imass/humans shapechange into other beings bcos their human form is weaker or has less developed senses than their soletaken form. Or alternatively with Imass, they have a preference for being one with nature. All other races subjugate nature. Unless they can find a worthwhile form to veer into, they won't walk the path of shapechanging.

[Urb]

Aptorian;256392 said:

TTT do not exist any longer (at least that we know) none of the giant people we've seen or heard of come close to the description of a TTT. And TTT are much older than the Imass that only emerged around the time of the Tiste Exodus.

Togg and Fanderay recruited a TTT with an enkar'al soul in it. So there is one that we know does exit. :eek:

[Urko Schmurko]

From my DG (Bantam paperback 2001) on page 455 Mappo explains to Fid after viewing the tiles at the bottom of Pust's residence in Raraku:

Quote

"Somewhere among those scatterd words is recounted the creation of shapeshifters - forces that are Soletaken and D'ivers are that old, Fiddler. They were old even in Elder times. No one species can claim propriety, and that includes the four Founding Races: Jaghut, Forkrul Assail, Imass and K'Chain Che'Malle."

On page 516 in a conversation between Heboric, Felisin, and Kulp at the old city in the desert:

Quote

"Soletaken and D'ivers, the ex-priest said. "The ritual unleashed powers that ran wild. Like a plague, shapeshifting claimed thousands, unwelcomed, no initiation - many went mad. Death filled the city..."

And on page 517 from Heboric:

Quote

... There is a bond between the T'lan Imass and Soletaken and D'ivers, a mysterious kinship that was unexpected by the dwellers of this city - though they claimed for themselves the proud title of First Empire. That would have irritated the T'lan Imass - assuming such creatures can feel irritation - to have so boldly assumed a title that rightly belonged to them. Yet what drew them here was the ritual, and the need to set things right"

So with the exception of Buke who rec'd his ability to shapeshift from K'rul it appears that humans cannot leave their human mortality become a Soletaken.

Last quote from Heboric on page 581 in DG:

Quote

"A bite can poison you, a cyclical fever of madness, but you do not beome a shapeshifter."
"Really, then how are they created?"

"They aren't. They're born."

I can't get away from the idea that Soletaken are tied to something ancient, created from whatever elemental force lead to the development of life. Human rituals attempting to become Soletaken appear to fail. But once "born" a Soletaken creature loses its mortality; and as far as human Soletaken go the path of death is no longer available to them....just like the post Ritual T'lan Imass. Unless the Beast Hold derived from some kind of life elemental force and then became further refined as HH Life, I can't see much connection between the Beast Hold, the undead T'lan Imass, and Soletaken.

I wonder how other readers interpreted these passages?

[Venerus]

Thelomen Toblerone;256400 said:

I must admit I'm particularly thrown, thinking back, about Moby's soletaken status. The other demons we've seen (Kendryll'ah, Aptorians, the one in GotM) don't seem to really have that sort of capacity, of course there's not much evidence, but it just seems that becoming soletaken isnt the sort of thing they'd focus on. But, that aside, the key thing is, why as a powerful, mighty, ascendant demon, would you think "oh ok, I'll change to a Bhoka'rala and sit in a guy's office as his familiar for 50 years, in the hope that something will come up taking me to a possible path of hands?"

Doesnt seem to make much sense really to me.

Last thing I'll post about this, I promise. There are two pre-chapter quotes in DHG (my copy is out... again >_<) in which they explain that Bhok'aral are excellent vessels for fusing weird extra-planar powers and magical experiments. It's a reference to a treatise, "Baruk's 1001 Ways to Use A Bhok'aral for Fun and Profit" or something like that. He experimented on them, and so when Mammot wanted a familiar, he either did as Baruk instructed, or Baruk helped make him a powerful familiar.

He must have been a particularly good sort of fellow, that Moby, because he protects Crokus and company, the Azath, and also (I think?) he warns Sormo and company about the path of hands and the infestation of warrens by Soletaken/D'ivers.

[Aptorian]

I liked the fact that Moby was much, much heavier then he should be when he crawled down Fiddler and went into Tremolo.

[pastures]

Urko, that was a very good post. However, there is at least one mistaken quote (and possibly more). When Heboric says Soletaken aren't created, but born. That may or may not be entirely true. We know at least that D'ivers can be created. Possibly even Soletaken. For example, the draconic Soletaken could not change into dragons until they drank of Tiam's blood.

Possibly, the potential for shapechanging is an ability that you have to be born with. But the fact that you can create D'ivers shapechangers suggests to me that the potential is merely if you can access magic or not (or access enough magic that you can shapechange). Certainly Elder gods have a habit of shapechanging e.g. K'rul, Mael.

[D'rek]

Well here's a wacky-tacky idea I got based on Schmurko's post...
what if shapeshifting is so old because it relates directly to the powerful equivalents of all the world's creatures. Just like Togg and Fanderay are for wolves, imagine there is also an ascendant (or perhaps original) of every creature. Evidently Tiam would be such for dragons. Now, if Tiam, Togg and Fanderay are any indication, these ascendant creatures have at least some power. If that power were to reside in the creature's blood, perhaps it could be passed on via the blood. Thus, the power of that creature passes on into it's children and also into those who drink its blood. After all, we just about never see any two soletaken of the same form. Additionally, I would assume that as the power passes from one being to another, there would be potential for alteration; for example, when K'rul killed the ascendant-sparrowhawk and its blood mixed with his power, he eventually developed the ability to imbue it in others like Buke.
As for D'ivers, some creatures, especially small ones, would have been communal or hive-mind creatures from the start, and so instead of a single ascendant, the whole first community is the ascended, and thus we have d'ivers.
Additional evidence:
The Imass have lots of Bonecasters because they were around before most of the other races and so were able to get first dibs.
There are only 7 hounds of shadow, so the blood would not be very diluted in the one Paran touched.

I know it's crazy, but what if i'm right?!

[pastures]

well definitely the blood point is valid and prob true (but maybe not the only way to become Soletaken/D'ivers).

the main point about the Alpha beings is interesting... however, i'm not at all sure that it must necessarily relate to alpha beings. For example, D'ivers almost definitely do not make use of alpha beings (e.g. rats). Imass bonecasters are unlikely to be using the alpha beings (gorilla, jaguar, etc) too. However, i take the point about the alpha being having more magic/power in their blood, and hence maybe that is why alpha beings are used where possible. but my point is that any blood with enough power in it can be used.

[Zanth13]

pastures;256413 said:

Well i assume that just as there are many paths to ascendancy, there are many paths to shapechanging (as evidenced by the First Empire). Drinking Tiam's blood is essentially drinking incarnate magic. Also, i mentioned in an earlier post that you probably have to "identify" with the form you are changing into, and that one of the easiest ways to do that is by drinking their blood. That is how i believe the Imass did it, which is why they wear the hides of their Soletaken form (probably bcos they killed it and drank its blood). Further, Olar Ethil changes into a dragon. How? Through drinking Tiam's blood. So there is no difference between Imass/Human Soletakens and Tiste Soletakens. In short, this all suggests that it is a path that magic users can take if so desired and if the requisite power is there.

.

There has to be other ways to becomming a soletaken then blood. First he have what Krul did to Emancipor R. he drank a liquid but i am deff it wasnt blood.

2nd, you have the Jeck or what ever they are called on lether, I really doubt they have to kill a wolf to get thier ability....

Though I do like the Idea of the mortal Imass having to fight wild animals to get thier soletaken abilities., and I never considired it before... its a fitting right of passage/ ritual that fits thier style imo.

[Urb]

Zanth13;257003 said:

2nd, you have the Jeck or what ever they are called on lether, I really doubt they have to kill a wolf to get thier ability....

The Jeck(sp?) were survivors of the First Empire soletaken-making ritual. Or am I remembering this wrong?

[Aptorian]

The ritual could have played a part in it, I don't remember any references to it though. Even if the first jeck were made, the ones that exist now were born soletaken.

[Wry]

The soletaken ability can be inherited, at least in the case of soletaken eleint, proved by rud elalle.

But then does the fact that kilava and onrack's son Ulsun doesn't seem to have any soletaken abilities (and i think he would have shown them with all the dangers facing his kin in RG) does this mean that the bonecasters soletaken ability is different, non transferable?