[Venerus]

All I was trying to convey is that there are a lot of times when characters have different views on who shares what features of what races, making it very difficult to say anything definitively, and is very suggestive of the idea that many races have cross-bred and so shared their ancestral magics.

[Pallol One Eye]

Wanted to update my post above. Went home at lunch and found out that my memory is not functioning at full capacity.

On Pages 283 - 284 of the US Trade edition Rath Queen of Dreams says that the bodies in the canoes were more Toblokai in stature. She also notes and that the TTT, Trell and Barghst all came from the same stock, with barghast having more Human blood.

Hetan also confirms a couple pages further in that the Moranth got their alchemical skills in trade with the Edur. Of course Hetan's knowledge is based on legends passed down through oral history.

Based on the length of time the information has been passed down through Pallol suggests a grain of salt with these two accounts.

[mob16151]

Random question and sorry to derail the thread but are the Jaghut a native wu species or a mighrant like the tiste races? Back on thread then Kilava took down those three kccm hunters that took trake out like they were nothing now was she able to do that because she is like more uber powered then trake or was it just because trake was bugshit nuts and was pretty much just pure angry alpha tiger and she wassnt .

[Aptorian]

The Jaghut, like the KCCM have been said posses homeworlds. This leads one to believe that they might not be native allthough they are mentioned as founding races... what the "founded" I don't know.

The thing about Trake being taken out so easily while Kilava didn't have a problem annoyed me. Trake was supposed to be a first hero ascendant. Then again, perhaps there was no skill left in th Trake by then and he was all animal instinct...

[Obdigore]

Pallol One Eye;255506 said:

Wanted to update my post above. Went home at lunch and found out that my memory is not functioning at full capacity.

On Pages 283 - 284 of the US Trade edition Rath Queen of Dreams says that the bodies in the canoes were more Toblokai in stature. She also notes and that the TTT, Trell and Barghst all came from the same stock, with barghast having more Human blood.

Hetan also confirms a couple pages further in that the Moranth got their alchemical skills in trade with the Edur. Of course Hetan's knowledge is based on legends passed down through oral history.

Based on the length of time the information has been passed down through Pallol suggests a grain of salt with these two accounts.

I think you mean the Moranth, Trell, and Barghast all come from the same stock, no?

Moranth are just Barghast that made peace with the Edur, and learned from them.

The soletaken ritual in the first empire was a way for the nobility to gain power and possible immortality. It said it was being taken instead of the hard path of ascending... Which means the first empire knew more about how/what to do to become powerfull than the people we see today.

Humans evolved from Imass, who evolved from Eres. Kilava is, imo, called the 'mother of humans' since I would bet she helped them from time to time. Remember a flesh and blood imass can pass for a Barghast, who aren't that different from normal human stock.

Anyway, I will have to read that part in MoI tonight, since I don't think TTT, Trell, and Barghast could come from the same stock, since Trell and Barghast are offshoots of TTT's.

[Venerus]

Obdigore;255659 said:

Kilava is, imo, called the 'mother of humans' since I would bet she helped them from time to time. Remember a flesh and blood imass can pass for a Barghast, who aren't that different from normal human stock.

No, she's called the "mother of humans" because there are some very suggestive passages in HoC about her and Onrack's children. And I think Pastures answered the claim/explained what he thinks her and Onrack's progeny actually are (ie not humans).

Obdigore;255659 said:

Anyway, I will have to read that part in MoI tonight, since I don't think TTT, Trell, and Barghast could come from the same stock, since Trell and Barghast are offshoots of TTT's.

Not to be trite, but quote or it didn't happen. You can't make highly controversial claims like this without very specific textual evidence, and given the way the story is told, any "evidence" is likely to be contested by other characters at other times, and is therefore only suggestive, not definitive.



And all of this is a serious derail of Wry's original post. I thought we were supposed to be discussing the idea of FE and soletaking as it relates to the Imass and soletaking. Wasn't that one of the major and pertinent parallels that he wanted some input on/fleshed out?

[pastures]

It is probably necessary to branch into this as there are also younger race soletakens. If we can determine the connection between younger and older race soletakens, then we've pretty much found out how FE and Imass are connected (but not how other races can be soletaken). I still think, after all this discussion, its a relationship through magic, not bloodlines per se.

[Obdigore]

Venerus;255683 said:

No, she's called the "mother of humans" because there are some very suggestive passages in HoC about her and Onrack's children. And I think Pastures answered the claim/explained what he thinks her and Onrack's progeny actually are (ie not humans).



Not to be trite, but quote or it didn't happen. You can't make highly controversial claims like this without very specific textual evidence, and given the way the story is told, any "evidence" is likely to be contested by other characters at other times, and is therefore only suggestive, not definitive.



And all of this is a serious derail of Wry's original post. I thought we were supposed to be discussing the idea of FE and soletaking as it relates to the Imass and soletaking. Wasn't that one of the major and pertinent parallels that he wanted some input on/fleshed out?

You mean the one child they had that has been in a pocket warren for thousands of years? That Child?

Quote or it didn't happen... I was refering to the quote I posted about TTT, Trell, and Barghast coming from the same stock, indicating I thought the person had mis-understood what they read.

I was responding to a post, not taking the topic off in an entirely new direction. Not to be trite, but next time please read the whole thing, included the quoted material, before attempting to jump on someones' posting.

[pastures]

Obd, i dont think Ven was referring to you in particular, but rather the discussion had morphed into one of bloodlines which i feel is a natural progression of the issue.

[Skywalker]

Venerus;255683 said:

Not to be trite, but quote or it didn't happen. You can't make highly controversial claims like this without very specific textual evidence, and given the way the story is told, any "evidence" is likely to be contested by other characters at other times, and is therefore only suggestive, not definitive.

OK... I found a quote in MOI. This is Talamandas telling QB about the Barghast:

MOI, on Ch 8, said:

"We came to this land from the seas, plying the vast waters in dugouts - the world was young, then, our blood thick with the secret truths of our past. Look upon the faces of the Barghast, mortal - no, look upon a Barghast skull stripped of skin and muscle..."
"I've seen... Barghast skulls," Quick Ben said slowly.
"Ah, and have you seen their like… animate?"
The wizard scowled. "No, but something similar, squatter - the features slightly more pronounced-"
"Slightly, aye, slightly. Squatter? No surprise, we never went hungry, for the sea provided. Yet more, Tartheno Toblakai were among us..."
"You were T'lan Imass! Hood's breath! Then... you and your kin must have defied the Ritual-"
"Defied? No. We simply failed to arrive in time - our pursuit of the Jaghut had forced us to venture onto the seas, to dwell among iceflows and on treeless islands. And in our isolation from kin, among the elder peoples - the Tartheno - we changed... when our distant kin did not. Mortal, wherever land proved generous enough to grant us a birth, we buried our dugouts - for ever. From this was born the custom of the trees on our barrows - though none among my kind remembers. It has been so long..."

So... Barghast = Imass (pre-ritual) * Tartheno.
We also know from MOI that Moranth = Barghast.

This need not imply Imass = Tartheno or some such.

Another quote, this from House of Chains

HOC, on Ch 21, said:

Febryl nodded. "The First Empire of Dessimbelackis, Kamist Reloe, was not the first. That belonged to the T'lan Imass. There was little, it is true, that you or I might recognize as being... imperial. No cities. No breaking of the ground to plant crops or irrigate. And its armies were undead. There was a throne, of course, upon which was meant to sit a mortal - the progeny race of the T'lan Imass. A human. Alas, humans viewed empire... differently. And their vision did not include T'lan Imass. Thus, betrayal. Then war. An unequal contest, but the T'lan Imass were reluctant to annihilate their mortal children. And so they left-’

"Only to return with the shattering of the warren," Kamist Reloe muttered, nodding. "When the chaos erupted with the ritual of Soletaken and D’ivers."

So Imass --> Humans. Eventually.

Trust that clears the air somemuch.

[Obdigore]

Skywalker, this statement confuses me

Quote

This need not imply Imass = Tartheno or some such.

I took this

Quote

And in our isolation from kin, among the elder peoples - the Tartheno - we changed... when our distant kin did not.

As saying 'We were cut off from other Imass, and while dwelling among the TTT, we changed...'

I think that is what you are saying?

[Skywalker]

Yeah... I'm saying the Imass and the TTT need not be apples from the same branch/ tree. Just that they commingled to make some Barghast babies.

BTW, I remembered another very interesting quote from GoTM (could well be a GoTMism, but):

GOTM, on Ch 10, said:

Bellurdan hesitated only a moment. "Very well. Among the archives collected from the city's mages - all of whom were executed, as you know - were found some copied fragments of Gothos' Folly, an ancient Jaghut tome-"
"I know of it," Tattersail interjected. "Go on."
'As a Thelomen, I possess Jaghut blood, though of course Gothos would deny it..."

So TTT come from Jaghut stock. Say what??

I would also draw your attention to RG when Icarium gets a by from Karsa because Karsa detects that he has some TTT blood.

So maybe the equations become...

Imass -> (Evolve) -> Human
Imass * TTT = Barghast = Moranth
Imass * Jaghut = TTT (wholly probable - call it a personal crazy theory)

But I think I have derailed this thread quite enough!

[Mentalist]

look at the Evolutionary tree thread, it's all there...

to clarify ah issue, I'll repost something from there, If I may...

Hmm.. as far as i Understood:
"Tartheno" refers to pure blood TTT, same as "Thelomen Toblakai"-all the original, unified species with a pretty advanced civilization

"Fenn" and "Teblor" refer to the fallen enclaves of TTT, that as far as we know are still pure-bloods, but degenerated culturally to a primitive, pastoral stage. In case of Teblor, the original pantheon was also usurped by the T'lann Imass spirits known as the Unbound. We don't have enough info on Fenn right now to clearly classify them (Maybe RotCG will tell us more?)

"Tarthenal"-Letherii term for mixed offsprings of humans and Tartheno"
"Trell"-a partially nomadic, partially sedentiary species that inhabit the plains west of Jhag Odhan in 7C. Im assuming that they are a separate species, although a possible evlutionary offshoot of TTT, because they inhabit the steppes and we never hear about their employment of Blood-oil or bloodswords (an old TTT habit, seeing as the Jhags of Jhag Odhan, who are a product of Jaghut/TTT interbreeding know of it when Karsa mentions it), being instead most reminiscent of the nomadic tribes of Central Asia/Mongolia (at one point Mappo mentions that they live in yurts). because of this i'd like to consider the Trell as separate category, although , of course they retain their connection to the TTT.
as for the Barghast (and, subsequently, the Moranth, who are the same specis biologically, but differ culturally, i currently don't recall enough bout their origins. one thing I do seem to remeber that they were those Imass that were too far away and didn't reach the gathering of the Ritual of Tellan in time....hence, they would be the direct descendants of the Imass (opening the intriguing possibility that humans evolved from the Barghast!!!). these travelling Imass met up with TTT on the seas, supposedly interbred with them to produce Barghast/Moranth...

Now, I'm not at home right now, so don't ast for quoetes

[Obdigore]

I thought there was a theory out there that the TTT were a genetics expiriment by the KCCM, using bodies of their slaves, the Jaghuts?

TTT and Jaghut are considered 'founding' races, I think, which means that Imass + Jaghut =/= TTT. Right?

Im going to go over to the Evolutionary tree thread.

[Mentalist]

Skywalker;256022 said:

Yeah... I'm saying the Imass and the TTT need not be apples from the same branch/ tree. Just that they commingled to make some Barghast babies.

BTW, I remembered another very interesting quote from GoTM (could well be a GoTMism, but):



So TTT come from Jaghut stock. Say what??

I would also draw your attention to RG when Icarium gets a by from Karsa because Karsa detects that he has some TTT blood.

So maybe the equations become...

Imass -> (Evolve) -> Human
Imass * TTT = Barghast = Moranth
Imass * Jaghut = TTT (wholly probable - call it a personal crazy theory)

But I think I have derailed this thread quite enough!

We don't know how pure-blooded Bellurdan (we thik he's a Fenn) is. an idea that was floating around for a while about TTT and Jaghuts was that is you have a male Jaghut + female TTT, you get Jhags. the other way around, you get Trells... this might fit into that.
Also, that could be a GotMism...
I think the genarally accepted opinion is that TTT ate about a old as the Imass and were one of the first ones on Wu..

[Skywalker]

To avoid derailing this post further, I went and posted an updated version of the Evolutionary Tree of Wu in the appropriate thread: http://malazanworld.com/forums/showpost.ph...41&postcount=82

Cheers!

[Urko Schmurko]

Just getting back to the very first post I recall Tool being able to access a warren in GotM which resulted in Tattersail and Bellurdan getting cooked as they clashed on the plains south of Pale. And, iirc, in one of the books (sorry, can't remember which), they described the Soletaken as being old, older than even OP or Tellan; with their own warren and such. Most soletaken did not survive the crash of CG arrival to Wu; some were strong enough to survive; some shattered to become D'ivers. What's this got to do with this post? Just that I'm not sure we know enough to explain Bonecaster and their Soletaken forms. I believe somehow that Soletakens are unique; almost elemental in nature and the creation of soletakens is an independant phenomena. The one thing I don't understand is why there were no Jaghut soletaken (yet). Otherwise, are new soletaken being created even in Wu's modern times...I can only think of that guard in MoI who could become a sparrow hawk as a result of a concoction provided by...damn I don't have my book with me. I just can't help but think there's a connection between Denul and/or HH Life, and soletaken. Not Tellan as undead can't become soletaken; can they? The bonecasters were alive; then came the ritual and no new T'lan soletaken have manifested. I'm rambling.

[Venerus]

I think you're thinking of Buke, who gets a soletaken sparrowhawk form from Keruli/K'rul (drinks a little statue-->soletaken).

I think we've seen/heard of a few people/characters become soletaken in the modern era. Ie, Paran getting the wolf's blood, Moby/Trout Sen al' being fused w/a demon, Mogara (since she's Dal Honese, presumably can't be *that* old). I think there's some precedent for new Soletaken coming about. In the cases of Paran and Moby, I'm not sure how much choice they had in the matter, which is kind of neat.

[Urko Schmurko]

Thanks Venerus, especially for pointing out Magora. I'm still not sure about Paran and Moby, I don't recall a reference to spicy smells when they veered, and it seemed soletaken could control the time and place of their veering while at least Paran seems to just fall into a hound form as dire circumstance requires it.
Anyway, it was the Soletaken/T'lan Imass/Beast Hold line Wry put out. The idea is creative; it's just that like I said in my initial post: I don't think we know enough yet, and now that you reminded me it was K'rul who gave Buke the statue, I'm more convinced that the Soletaken warren is much older Tellan or even the Beast Hold. And you need to be alive to become a Soletaken so I'm thinking either Denul or HH Life are connected in this somehow. The trouble is Houses are reletively new compared to the Holds and Elementals and I haven't thought my way through this....but it was K'rul who gave Buke the ability to veer....interesting.

[Mentalist]

ummm...
Urko, Telann wasn't always the warren of dust. it used to be something else. besides, once again, I point out the Eleint Soletaken--how do they fif into the picture?
As for Imass--obviously, they were alive, don't forget, they essentially stopped growing after the Ritual, so they wouldn't get any more Bonecasters, since they utlived their Gods.
I donn't believe that Soletakenness is a unique phenomena. I don't see enough proof for it.
BTW, Paran is "spicy"... it was mentioned here before... check in MoI when Qb sees him fighting the demon-condor...