[Optimus Prime]

That is it...exactly.

Man I'm not insane.

So the K'Chain ensured that everything would have an ending.....

have rep Dag

[Mentalist]

Fascinating...
With this new info in mind, do we now WANT MD to come out of hiding?

Also, this whole subatomic particles manipulation thing is scary.

[Optimus Prime]

I've been wondering about this for a while...because in theory...this move by the K'Chain has earned them the enmity of every race/people/god/element etc....

[Aptorian]

I think the dragons wrath was enough.

[Abyss]

Dag;249264 said:

...the death of the Abyss, cannot be averted....�

Oh. Crap.

But on topic, it's interesting that the dragons wiped out large chunks of KC, especially if they spawned them.

It's alse interesting that apparently only Draconus tried to do anything about this, tho in retrospect he said in MoI that he screwed up even before he gave Rake a reason to kebab him.

- Abyss, bummed about the death thing...

[Optimus Prime]

It is almost like the Dragons are the disgraced creators trying to clean up their mistake....deciding the K'Chain are too dangerous and powerful to let live.

The K'Chain tying everything to death I think will end up being a major part of the next three books

[Lisheo]

Mother Dark has become chaos, anyone? Father Light is our favourite CG, thus ensuring their union remains complete.

[Mentalist]

This has Crazy theory written all over it...

[pastures]

so its true that the KC use gravity as magic. They basically formed a gigantic super black hole that will suck all matter into it and thus "end" the world (basically they must have concentrated enough gravitational energy - dont know how this is possible without matter though - to create a black hole). But then again, no one knows what goes on in a black hole.

no use killing the KC now... the black hole feeds on all matter and will only get bigger.

What we need is to keep the KC alive!!! So they can UNDO their ritual (if magic is indeed an energy source capable of doing that...)

So all started with Mother Dark, and will end with Mother Dark. Everything within Mother Dark will be chaos (bcos all matter gets ripped up when entering a black hole). So the cycle will begin again. "Imposition of order" on chaos, leading to Krul and magic, etc etc...

[Mentalist]

or it all comes out on the other side, exactly the same, then the black hole inverts on itself and starts sucking in the matter the oter way... and so on and so forth, ad nauseum...
Now even I think that's a crazy cyclical treory...

[pastures]

no thats not possible. matter literally gets ripped apart when entering a black hole. it starts from square one again (Mother Dark - the great nothingness).

[tiam]

Abyss;239962 said:

...so i'm rereading the series, since it's been about 2 years or so (so i'm an addict - leave me alone), and i'm cruising along through the ever famous 'first 200' of GotM, when i arrive at the rooftop exchange between Tayshrenn and Tattersail, i believe just before 'Sail does a reading at Tays request

The discussion turns to High House Shadow, and they mention that
the House is relatively new, or a new form of something old; and, the House may not have yet reached its final shape - all good, this basically reflects things we know from elsehints.

But the REALLY interesting comment is from Tattersail, loosely paraphrased as:

'High House Shadow may not survive. There have been many other short-lived Houses in the past.'

And this triggered my forum-reflex - does anyone recall, anywhere in any book, a ref to earlier House no longer in existance? Not Holds - Holds are an old form in an old pantheon, i mean actual Houses?

- Abyss, speculating on housing...

Seems likely a GOTMism but could simply refer to the usurpers over the years who have founded a house. By recent it could simply be last 5000 years. Like the Whirlwhind founded a house, is used in a deck for awhile, through internal conflict or external pressure is brought down, therefore a house created and a house failed.

[D'rek]

I don't think it's necessarily a GotMism; it's very plausible. There were holds that used to be active and went inactive, why not the same for old Houses? There are some warrens which have neither a House nor Hold nor Elder Patron. Example --> Fire. We've got Telas which is a completely accessible mortal warren probably derived from the old Tellann or Kurald Liosan warrens (Kurald Thyrllan more likely spawned Thyr, so it's possible Liosan<->Fire). If there was an old High House Fire centuries/millenia ago, I wouldn't be so surprised.

Of course, this leads the question of what could've happened to a human-accessible High House to make it 'die'......

[Zendog13]

I direct your attention to the point in Midnight Tides where Brys Bedict takes a spiritual dive into the oceans to do the Ceda's biding and discovers the missing god(s) which the Edur managed to enslave and use to wreck havoc on the Letheri. There are multiple gods down there with their names engraved into those dolmen so that they will not be forgotten. Brys proceeds to give his power (and sword) to the guardian he just smacked in order to help him. He also memorizes the names to try and ensure they are never forgotten. If there are forgotten Gods held in stasis down there then I believe we can safely assume that a lot of their Holds/Houses may have existed in the past, but not any more.

[D'rek]

Ah, good reminder on that.

My instinct is that those names he memorizes are of very old spirit-like gods from the Elder or Ancient times --> the ones that were not as strong as the Elder/Ancient Gods like Draconus/Togg, and so dependent on some form of worship for any power at all (and dependent on their name being remembered in order to exist at all). When we later get the PoV of the water spirit the Edur enslaved, it reminisces about how it was a spirit of a water spring. So since they're all so old, I don't think any of them had Houses, but some of the stronger ones could've been members of a Hold, or pre-Hold.

Therefore it sets a precedent for the potential of dead Houses.

[Lisheo]

Azath Hold starts dying in MT, that is a definate precedent, remember... But I dont think houses die as such. I think they just kinda leave the deck, their gates close except for one, ie Shadow House is linked to the azath, and that is how they become reborn... What I find interesting is the mention in MoI that there were other decks...

[Silencer]

You mean the idea that there may have been other decks.
What is more relevant, is the huge number of old/unused representations of Houses or Holds in Paran's Deck-place. (Or is that what you meant, Lisheo?).
Houses fade, can be remembered, and are simply a way of organizing things. They are the imposition of order, rules, on the ascendant game. Or, at least, that is the impression I got...think about it - if all the people in a bloodline die/leave, what happens to the bloodline? It becomes a memory, then is forgotten. Now imagine stringing that over tens of thousands of years....human memory would be too taxed to remember all the old houses. Sure, Gods and whatnot might remember, but they are not in the habit of directly talking to their acolytes.

[Abyss]

Lisheo;257569 said:

Azath Hold starts dying in MT, that is a definate precedent, remember...

You're mixing Azath Houses and High Houses in the Deck. They may be related, but they aren't the same thing.

The Azath in MT was a 'House' in the sense that it was house/tower-shaped and imprisoned ascendents. The 'House of the Whirlwind' was Dryjha's attempt to subvert Raraku and a chunk of KE for more power, but she failed (died) and the CG may have twisted that into the House of Chains in some way.

So in that context, it may be that in the past others have tried to seize warrens or other power sourcesa nd set themselves up as 'Houses', only to be taken down by other ascendents, gods, and/or well-armed assassins as we saw happen to Dryjha.

- Abyss, dry-witted.

[Mentalist]

I thought that CG failed to win the Raraku piece of KE since Karsa killed Bidithal?
wasn't there a mention that Raraku took it for itself?

edit: post # 900!!!

[Zanth13]

kud13;258099 said:

I thought that CG failed to win the Raraku piece of KE since Karsa killed Bidithal?
wasn't there a mention that Raraku took it for itself?

edit: post # 900!!!

Its been awhile but I think you might be right Kud... I think no one ended up with that chunk...