[raest]

Aptorian;240247 said:

was that cards? Sure it wasn't the mention of the thousands o azaths existing in hundreds of worlds?

Your suggestion could mean that the house system along with the holds exists in all worlds and it would be a definete connection between the warrens and the azaths.

I'm not sure. I don't have MoI so I can't check.

Even if it were only referring to cards, it may be that the cards were organised into Houses anyway. I do think that the word "hundreds" was used, so to me it feels more likely that there are lots of dead Houses rather than a huge number of unaligned.

(Aside: if there were many dead unaligned Ascendants/cards, perhaps they are the carnage resulting from the evolution of the Holds to Houses.)

Another vague MoI recollection: Silverfox theorises to Paran that when in an Azath, you're allowed to choose. Implying Kellanved and Dancer chose to occupy the vacant HH Shadow even if there were other dead/vacant Houses (and they were in the Death-aspected Deadhouse). Which further implies that Shadow is especially important, otherwise why would they have chosen it?

[Aptorian]

Kel and Dancer had been doing a lot of research, they were gone from the empire for a long time, perhaps decades allthough I doubt it was more than ten years.

They walked inside the azaths, they travelled to far away places and, most importantly, we hear that they were working with a scholar that had used his entire life trying to figure out the way to ascend and take position in shadow.

I'm sure they knew about forgotten houses and they specifically chose the House of Shadow. As we learn the empire had been aware of bad things coming for quite some time, even ascending to become gods of shadow is just a means to an end for those two.

[ch'arlz]

Aptorian;240805 said:

I'm sure they knew about forgotten houses and they specifically chose the House of Shadow.

They did specifically choose the House of Shadow, but I don't believe it was one of many options. They targeted it from the beginning. Shadow wasn't a forgotten house, it was an empty throne.

[Abyss]

Echoing the above, K&D ascended to Shadow because the Throne was empty/available, although it was available because of the history of the relevant warrens, going all the way back to KE shattering.

Meanas was a known factor. People were already using it in some fashion before HHS manifested. Kel and Dancer while travelling the Azath, discovered a Throne there, but it could only be taken control of in the right circumstances (see NOK).

High House Shadow is NOT Meanas. It is a Deck of Dragons manifestation of the powers Kellanved and co. brought into play when they seized the Throne, and via that, control of Meanas. Sure, Meanas/Rashan/Thyr/Mokra, all apparently KE derivatives, were actively used warrens before ST ascended.

Consider: The House of War/Beast Hold seems to have its own warren, which was created by the Mhybe's dream that Hood arranged, the Bhargast gods and the Imass memories Itkovian plunked in... we haven't seen anyone 'channeling it' like Meanas and maybe that's because it's not possible,(Fener was Tennes and presumably so is Trake) but all that being said, it's a warren derived from various powers built on the foundation of the previously dormant Beast Hold - we don't know what, if anything, it can do or can be done with it. There's a shapeshifter warren too, but we haven't seen anyone stroll through it. Presumably if one entered the Path of Hands door in Pust's basement, there's a warren on the other side, but given the comment in HoC that Togg/Fancytail could demand obedience from soletaken, it would seem that was the Beast Throne, now occupied.

Over in the House of Chains, there was no 'Chainthrone' (sounds like an S&M toilet) - there was Kallor's non-magical chair he was carting around, but that's not the same as the previous two - yet the CG formed a House of Chains anyways.

So what does one need to make a House? - apparently sufficient power/influence that the Deck reflects the presence and restricts you to the Rules.

And it logically follows that in the past, there were others who were able to show this level of power, even if ultimately they were taken down and their House removed from influence and the Deck.

- Abyss, thinkymeatz hurtz now, need beer...

[Zanth13]

mmmm

The deck recognizes houses and individual powers, so whats the difference

You have High House life but then you also have the unaligned cards that belong to no house.

Are these just specific individuals strong enough to register or have some pull on the deck, there for getting a card even they dont fall into any specific house.

[Abyss]

A House recognizes a similar aspect or commonality of purpose. An unaligned just recognizes a power.

- Abyss, aspected to snooze button.

[D'rek]

Aptorian said:

was that cards? Sure it wasn't the mention of the thousands o azaths existing in hundreds of worlds?

The thingies for "possible elements" that Paran sees in MoI are not houses or cards or anything at all. More like "cobblestones" because they are part of the floor (which stretches beyond sight in all directions, implying probably more than mere thousands), so I don't think they're supposed to symbolize any of the different "organizatons" of elements like holds, tiles, cards or houses. Just pure, unorganized elemental possibilities.

raest said:

Another vague MoI recollection: Silverfox theorises to Paran that when in an Azath, you're allowed to choose. Implying Kellanved and Dancer chose to occupy the vacant HH Shadow even if there were other dead/vacant Houses (and they were in the Death-aspected Deadhouse). Which further implies that Shadow is especially important, otherwise why would they have chosen it?

Silverfox does talk about there being an element of "choosing" their "element"/theme but we can't be sure how much of an extent that it goes. Part of why Cot and ST were able to use the Deadhouse to make a house of Shadow is because the 'death' aspect was already taken. We can't be sure how much choice they'd have had if they entered an Azath whose associated aspect was not filled by someone.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Aptorian;240805 said:

Kel and Dancer had been doing a lot of research, they were gone from the empire for a long time, perhaps decades allthough I doubt it was more than ten years.

They walked inside the azaths, they travelled to far away places and, most importantly, we hear that they were working with a scholar that had used his entire life trying to figure out the way to ascend and take position in shadow.

I'm sure they knew about forgotten houses and they specifically chose the House of Shadow. As we learn the empire had been aware of bad things coming for quite some time, even ascending to become gods of shadow is just a means to an end for those two.

that scholar, oleg vikat, could be the third that apsalar mentioned, "there were always three" and all that.

[Zanth13]

Abyss;240963 said:

A House recognizes a similar aspect or commonality of purpose. An unaligned just recognizes a power.

- Abyss, aspected to snooze button.

So then that brings the question, once someone gets position in a house, can they break away and become an unaligned... ie what would happen if Cottillion left HHS. Not every one would become an unaligned power/card I dont think...

I think the top 3 in a house have to be Ascendants, but then the rest can be filled by any one at the wim of the king


things to think about

~we know that positions in the houses are not permenant IE Hoods Herald getting fired, and Dassem, wtf happens to ousted position holders...
What benefits do you get for being in a house that you would lose if you were fired?

. Cottillion ascended to the position of the Rope just like Shadowthrone...is that the only way humans can hold a true position in a house?


~Dassem resigned his position, did he come an unaligned afterwords (i cant remember if Dessembrae had a card)


I have been writing this post for about an hour, comming back and forth between work, so I tried to keep it from being chaotic, hopefully it makes some sence...

[Aptorian]

Nobody has to be an ascendant, at least I don't think.

I guess the question here is "do you automatically ascend when you become king of the hill in a house?" Our only real subjects for discussion are the House of Chains and the House of Shadow.

Kallor, the reaver in the house of chains, was told he could be king. Of course the king not being ascendant could be a flaw in itself.

Did ST and Cot ascend because they assumed the top positions or was it just something they took care of on the way in? I don't think it was related to their positions I think it was just a trick connected with their usurpation.

You don't have to be an ascendant to "hold a posistion". Trull is the most obvious example of this. Trull is also the biggest problem. Trull was the knight, but unlike with Bruchalin we didn't hear ST contact the Edur and say, "hey, want a job?" We assume that the house chose Trull itself, some kind of automatic selection. But it is STs way to be sneaky, to just select Trull without asking the Edurs permission.

I think you only leave the position if you somehow conciously dismiss the god or king/curse his name, like Dassem did, or the King fires you, like Hood did with Gethol.

As for what you get out of being employed by a house? I could imagine you eventually ascend. You at least get longevity, immunity, some extra avareness. You get to use the warren for travel. I bet you get various mage like abilities.

[Zanth13]

Aptorian;241177 said:

Nobody has to be an ascendant, at least I don't think.

I guess the question here is "do you automatically ascend when you become king of the hill in a house?" Our only real subjects for discussion are the House of Chains and the House of Shadow.

Kallor, the reaver in the house of chains, was told he could be king. Of course the king not being ascendant could be a flaw in itself.

Did ST and Cot ascend because they assumed the top positions or was it just something they took care of on the way in? I don't think it was related to their positions I think it was just a trick connected with their usurpation.

You don't have to be an ascendant to "hold a position". Trull is the most obvious example of this. Trull is also the biggest problem. Trull was the knight, but unlike with Bruchalin we didn't hear ST contact the Edur and say, "hey, want a job?" We assume that the house chose Trull itself, some kind of automatic selection. But it is STs way to be sneaky, to just select Trull without asking the Edurs permission.

I think you only leave the position if you somehow consciously dismiss the god or king/curse his name, like Dassem did, or the King fires you, like Hood did with Gethol.

As for what you get out of being employed by a house? I could imagine you eventually ascend. You at least get longevity, immunity, some extra awareness. You get to use the warren for travel. I bet you get various mage like abilities.

Damn no dental...im just going to have to turn down death on that job.. .its all about dental coverage...

So do you think that if you lost your position you lost said abilities/perks?

Well I said humans had to be an ascendant and Trull is not human, and we have no positive life span or power levels on Edur....

So I guess your right the big question is "did Dancer and Kellevend ascend because of taking over the HHS or did they need to ascend (hence the deaths in the tower) TO take over HHS?

Knowing that would help put an answer on said questions.

And maybe just ascension wasn’t enough, maybe the needed to become actual gods(getting the prayers from all the shadow/assissin cults) and have control of a warren/house to do what they have planned to do.

They certainty seemed to have gathered all the virtues the could godhood, control of a house/ and a warren, and Ascendant power levels,

[Gem Windcaster]

I always get the feeling that Kel and Dancer taking over HHS is just a dot on the larger map of their scheme. "Oh, and by the way, we need to be Gods and have a High House to do that..."


- Gem, thinks there is a reason for ST being 'stretched'.

[Abyss]

It's unclear exactly what point Kel & D ascended at, but once they took over Meanas and had access to its power, they became gods, so one way or the other, they got there.

They got there by entering an Azath House, specifically the Malaz Island Deadhouse, which was positioned, because of events in NoK, to grant them access to the Throne of Shadow. We know the Old Guard were generally hanging out in the Azath long before - it was that specific night and those specific events that allowed the takeover to happen. At least that's my theory and i'm sticking to it.

- Abyss, figures the Deadhouse needed a disco ball...

[D'rek]

Zanth13;241199 said:

So I guess your right the big question is "did Dancer and Kellevend ascend because of taking over the HHS or did they need to ascend (hence the deaths in the tower) TO take over HHS?

Even if one of the cases is true, the manner in which they went about it could change anything. They used the Azath to access that fragment of KE and whatnot, but how did, for example, D'riss ascend and attain godhood? Too many variables and not enough specific cases...

[Lisheo]

According to Nok, they didnt take over Meanas, they took over something called merely Shadow in the glossary at the back of NoK, and they didnt die, either, nor did Dassem... Baudin died, and he is now Knight of Death, but is he ascendant"?
Stormy and Gesler passed through an inimical warren to ascend....
Lisheo's List of Ascension Methods
-Be a powerful mage, and gain enough power to ascend that way, although its only been hinted at in the books.
-Go through an inimical, possibly needing to be inhuman, warren.
-Gain entry into an Azath House at the right time.
-Drink enough of Tiam's blood, by the sounds of Ruin, Rake, and Osric. After all, Andarist didnt seem to be an ascendant.
-Gain experience and power through traumatic events, eg Karsa
If Im missing anything, feel free to add it.

But Longevity does not guarantee ascendancy, in the case of Mappo and Iccy...

[Zanth13]

Lisheo;242033 said:

According to Nok, they didnt take over Meanas, they took over something called merely Shadow in the glossary at the back of NoK, and they didnt die, either, nor did Dassem... Baudin died, and he is now Knight of Death, but is he ascendant"?
Stormy and Gesler passed through an inimical warren to ascend....
Lisheo's List of Ascension Methods
-Be a powerful mage, and gain enough power to ascend that way, although its only been hinted at in the books.
-Go through an inimical, possibly needing to be inhuman, warren.
-Gain entry into an Azath House at the right time.
-Drink enough of Tiam's blood, by the sounds of Ruin, Rake, and Osric. After all, Andarist didnt seem to be an ascendant.
-Gain experience and power through traumatic events, eg Karsa
If Im missing anything, feel free to add it.

But Longevity does not guarantee ascendancy, in the case of Mappo and Iccy...

Want to point out the Gessler and stormy were not and are not ascendants....not yet any way... they are described as near ascendants, which I believe is an important difference.

There is also a difference between godhood and Ascension, though besides worshippers I’m not sure what it would be, maybe also control of a warren/world. Or maybe becoming a god is just another Ascendant power levels.

I would add death to the list as a way to ascend, Guess it could also stop ascension lol...

certain rituals might do it also, ie the tanno song.

[Lisheo]

Oh, good catch with the Tanno, I forgot all about it... So is that a blessing or ritual? A God is an ascendant with worshippers. They draw power from em, but also get drawn on...
Stepping Stones to ascendancy!
-Card in the Deck.
-Hounds blood?
-Go through an inimical warren (my bad for assuming they were ascendants lol)

[Zanth13]

Lisheo;242047 said:

Oh, good catch with the Tanno, I forgot all about it... So is that a blessing or ritual? A God is an ascendant with worshippers. They draw power from em, but also get drawn on...
Stepping Stones to ascendancy!
-Card in the Deck.
-Hounds blood?
-Go through an inimical warren (my bad for assuming they were ascendants lol)

hound blood could probably be considered similarto to what happened with Gessler... an external force making a change on a mortal/human....

the song would probably fall under blessing... maybe simlar to was the master of the deck can do now??

the paths to ascendancy are varied so it would be near impossible to make an accuarate list giving what we know and more importantly what we dont know....

But it is always fun to try

[Mentalist]

heh.. just to remind you all: Baudin also passed through the inimical warren...

[Optimus Prime]

Isn't it said somewhere that Shadow touches everything? Maybe that is why Kel and Dancer decided on that warren. It had access to many others...

I also think it is just a means to their ultimate goal. They definitely know something we don't...perhaps the true threat isn't the Crippled God...but what is "coming".

I think also that Shadow suited Kel and Dancer's personalities..perhaps once in an Azath that has a lot to do with the choices you have.