[Skywalker]

1) Apt raises an interesting point on another thread - does the Azath simply gobble up ALL beings of power, or does it judge which beings will cause imbalance? Does it operate on an immediate and local scale, or in long terms on a cosmic scale? Given that we know so little about the Azath in general, and SE/ ICE being how they are, I'm thinking we'll be left pondering these things until (if not long after) the release of the 10th book! But thought it deserved a fresh thread of its own (assuming it had some more in the past... too lazy to search)

2) The other question I wanted to ask stems from this conversation between Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu when they are carrying Sheltatha Lore to the Azath and are met by Osserc in MT:

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Osserc:"As you so often note, dear child, treachery and betrayal is our extended family’s most precious trait, or, if not precious, certainly its most popular one. In any case, I am done here. What do you intend doing with her?"

"We think Silchas might enjoy the company."

Osserc stiffened. "Two draconean Ascendants in the same grounds? You sorely test that Azath House, daughters."

VERY Minor NoK spoilers now follow for those that would like to avoid them.






So my second question is... If imprisoning a being of power strengthens the Azath, as NoK seems to suggest, why would Osserc say this?

Which is it - does a powerful prisoner strengthen, or strain the Azath? Can't be both methinks

[Illuyankas]

Perhaps one strengthens the house more than it strains it, but two is too much?

[Obdigore]

sky_walker;238238 said:

1) Apt raises an interesting point on another thread - does the Azath simply gobble up ALL beings of power, or does it judge which beings will cause imbalance? Does it operate on an immediate and local scale, or in long terms on a cosmic scale? Given that we know so little about the Azath in general, and SE/ ICE being how they are, I'm thinking we'll be left pondering these things until (if not long after) the release of the 10th book! But thought it deserved a fresh thread of its own (assuming it had some more in the past... too lazy to search)

2) The other question I wanted to ask stems from this conversation between Menandore and Sukul Ankhadu when they are carrying Sheltatha Lore to the Azath and are met by Osserc in MT:



VERY Minor NoK spoilers now follow for those that would like to avoid them.






So my second question is... If imprisoning a being of power strengthens the Azath, as NoK seems to suggest, why would Osserc say this?

Which is it - does a powerful prisoner strengthen, or strain the Azath? Can't be both methinks

Why couldn't it be both.

First, I think an azath is a cog in a balancing machine, of a network of azath houses, which are related to the elemental forces (both those recognized and those not).

Now, assume you throw an ascendant in an azath house. What if there is a struggle to contain that ascendant, and then once that fight is finished, you can tap part of that ascendant's power, to capture others, while you use part of your strength to hold down the first ascendant.

That would mean that with Ruin in the grounds, perhaps the struggle with the other one would bring the azath close to the edge, and if Ruin took that oppertunity to get active, perhaps together they would have killed the Azath and broken free?

Again, I am of the opinion that the entire azath network is planning far into the future, knowing on some base level of balance, due to its relationship with the 'elemental forces'. It will not gobble up every single powerful person out there, but it will take most. It will not take those that it thinks it can either Bend to its will, or are interested in working with it.

IE, Shadowthrone and Dancer were powerful, but seemed to want to learn about the houses, and therefore the azath didnt eat them up. It attempted to eat Gothos, but it seems he made a deal with the Azath, to guard it, instead of being imprisoned, which it allowed, so he was bent to the azath's will.

[Skywalker]

I dont think it can be both...

There is merit in the idea that once an Azath has completely subdued a prisoner it can use the power of the prisoner to keep others in control... But then both Ruin and Sheltatha Lore were in the Azath for thousands of years - thats a long enough struggle! So why would the Azath find their load unbearable during the Seventh Closure?

Also, having two such powerful people in its control, why would the Azath need additional help to battle the Toblakai gods? Wouldn't things balance out?

[Coco with marshmallows]

well, the point was that the azath house in Lether was dying.
now bear with me here:
maybe a 'contest of wills' has to occur between azath and prisoner before the azath can tap their power. Otherwise, the azath merely holds them in place, but cannot feed off their power.

there are certain hints given here and there in RG (IIRC) that Ruin used his time in the azath to recuperate from being assaulted by Bloodeye.

in short then, i suggest he never tried to escape until such time as the azath was dying, at which point it no longer had the strength to battle him.

I think

[Mentalist]

I'll throw in my 2 cents about the dying Azath...
I've always wondered, just why exactly was the Azath in MT dying?
If we consider the Azath to be a balance scale of cosmic proportion, then it would take a really major event to do something to it. I like to think that the death of that particular Azath was related to Gothos' ritual, that either the ritual itself (or its unravelong and the rise of Hood on Letheras) created a great imbalance, strong enough to causer the failure of an entire Azath

[Lisheo]

My Answers
1:

Spoiler

In NoK, the Deadhouse attacked anyone who attacked it, not just the powerful ppl. I think the Azath take those who are dangerous or aggressive, not necessarily powerful. It can also take ghosts and spirits.

2: The thing bout Silchas and co. was they were both put in the same barrow, so I'm assuming that was a strain on its resources.
3: The Azath tower died to prevent the Edur using it, would be my guess. Rhulad and the Warlock King are not the kinda guys you want holding a gatehouse to every existing realm.

[Skywalker]

Did it have to die to deny the Edur control of/ access to the Azath??

Couldn't it simply "deny entry" to them as it has almost every ascendant/ powerful being other than Shadowthrone and Cotillion for millennia?

[Lisheo]

I think that certain ppl are stronger than the Azath, Iccy, for example.

Spoiler

In NoK, according to Agayla, the Deadhouse doesnt possess the power to resist the likes of the Stormriders, although whether thats because of sheer power or numbers or both, I dont know

So, I suspect that the Edur could have forced entry.

[Urb]

kud13;238290 said:

I've always wondered, just why exactly was the Azath in MT dying?

Can it die of old age?

[Aptorian]

There was never given any real reason for it dying so I'd certainly chalk it up to being old age.

Kinda weird really, does that mean that the azath breed? That they actually need the sustenance of powerfull creatures? What other needs do they have? Do all the Azaths communcate? Do they feel sorrow when one paces away? Do an azath house have influence anywhere else than its own location?

[Abyss]

Note tho that as it died, the Azath took steps to 'reproduce' via the Refugim House. This may have been a natural part of the Azath life cycle.

Alternately, it's also possible the Leth Azath was the first of its kind, by which i mean the first 'House', not the first expression of Azath power - Paran's trip back and dogfight with the primitive Jaghut in GotM suggests they've been around for longer than the jaghut have been buillding towers for the Azath to emulate as it did in Leth. hence, it just ran out of power to live.

I tend to think that the Azath feeds on its victims, but strong enough victims can resist it, hence Ossi's comment about Silch and Sheltana being maybe more than the Azath could handle. The five Sereghal were weak but fed on even weaker prisoners so they were restored by the time they emerged. The Pack appeared functional even if it was afraid of the Sereghal.

We really don't know much about the Azath as a living entity or system. It certainly seems tohave 'conscious' elements, as Gothos implies in DG that a deal had been cut with Shadowthrone, altho whether it was Gothos or the Azath who cut that deal is questionable, since it tied to Icarium. The Finnest House arose to deal with Raest seemingly of its own accord, and the Jhag Odhan House had enough life to become the Jag-tree even after Iccy destroyed it.

The NOs seem to serve the Azath, but whether this is their interpretation or a real directive from the Azath is also unclear.

- Abyss, notes people in wood Houses should not cast fire spells...

[Obdigore]

Abyss;238593 said:

Note tho that as it died, the Azath took steps to 'reproduce' via the Refugim House. This may have been a natural part of the Azath life cycle.

Yes.

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Alternately, it's also possible the Leth Azath was the first of its kind, by which i mean the first 'House', not the first expression of Azath power - Paran's trip back and dogfight with the primitive Jaghut in GotM suggests they've been around for longer than the jaghut have been buillding towers for the Azath to emulate as it did in Leth. hence, it just ran out of power to live.

Speculation, but I cannot disprove it.

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I tend to think that the Azath feeds on its victims, but strong enough victims can resist it, hence Ossi's comment about Silch and Sheltana being maybe more than the Azath could handle. The five Sereghal were weak but fed on even weaker prisoners so they were restored by the time they emerged. The Pack appeared functional even if it was afraid of the Sereghal.

I agree with this, however I think that if/when something is first put in the house, it needs to be 'dominated' once before the azath can feed on it, and it can still have problems with a truly strong creature.

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We really don't know much about the Azath as a living entity or system. It certainly seems tohave 'conscious' elements, as Gothos implies in DG that a deal had been cut with Shadowthrone, altho whether it was Gothos or the Azath who cut that deal is questionable, since it tied to Icarium. The Finnest House arose to deal with Raest seemingly of its own accord, and the Jhag Odhan House had enough life to become the Jag-tree even after Iccy destroyed it.

Well, Raest seems to serve the azath, I would assume for a deal to be made, there must be sentience on both sides.
I did not remember that it was that azath house which Iccy attacked. Iccy pulled back before he destroyed it, right, but the house died of its wounds anyway? Maybe it channeled its remaining energy into a small part, in the hope that a deal could be fashioned, like the one in lether, to be reborn. Perhaps the child was speared into that small part of power, or close enough?

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The NOs seem to serve the Azath, but whether this is their interpretation or a real directive from the Azath is also unclear.

Possibly making the Azath houses ascended. Are the NO's serving the house's or assuming they are, or are they like all the other religions, with a couple true believers and the rest of the people are just powerhungry? Remember that if the mortal followers of a god take a stance on one side of something, the god seems to be tied to doing that, hence the slaughtering of D'reks' cult.

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- Abyss, notes people in wood Houses should not cast fire spells...

Unless you are Sinn, then you can do whatever you want.

Seriously, I do think that the Azath is a group, or possibly a single, large sentience. What if there is One azath brain, and all the rest are just extensions of its will/power? I maintain that an Azath has to be sentient, and the azath house, if they are independant, can communicate with each other, and work together, at the very least.

[Abyss]

Obdigore;238601 said:

Yes.

... I do think that the Azath is a group, or possibly a single, large sentience. What if there is One azath brain, and all the rest are just extensions of its will/power? I maintain that an Azath has to be sentient, and the azath house, if they are independant, can communicate with each other, and work together, at the very least.

We're generally agreed, but on your last point, this assumes 'sentience' in a sense that there is a controlling mind, hive mind, whatever, dictating what the Houses, roots, pathways, etc do. I wonder tho, what if it's more an immune system than a conscious being. The cells do what they must and go where they are pulled, and all the little humans, jaghut, etc, are just working around something that doesn't really care what they do.

SPOILERS NOK SPOILERS SPOILERS FOR NOK
NIGHT OF KNIVES SPOILES WILL TAKE ROOT
AND SPOILERS SPOILERS GROWN IN YOUR
SPOILERS NOSTRILS AND UP SPOILERS INTO YOUR
SPOILERS BRAINZ FNCKING SPOILERS NOK SPOILERS

Spoiler

that said, there was a definite power boost to Temper when he accepted the Guardian job - enough to let him face the Jaghut former guardian. Of course, just a few pages earlier, the House tried to eat him too.

On the other hand, it seems the Azath itself cut a deal with Silchas to gut Kettle when they arrived in the Refugim and he got the Scaby finnest.

All of which is to say, i wonder whether the Azath are a 'beyond human comprehension' type thing, but The Silchas thing seems to suggest you're right.

- Abyss, will never buy a bridge from a House.

[Mcflury]

well, I would consider the azath as a micro-organism (roughly spoken that is): they know of each others existance, and communicate in certain ways (and thus making sure you can travel from one to the other). After a certain time though that micro-organism will die, but another will come in its place or it already duplicated itself in some way or another.

[Obdigore]

Abyss;238613 said:

We're generally agreed, but on your last point, this assumes 'sentience' in a sense that there is a controlling mind, hive mind, whatever, dictating what the Houses, roots, pathways, etc do. I wonder tho, what if it's more an immune system than a conscious being. The cells do what they must and go where they are pulled, and all the little humans, jaghut, etc, are just working around something that doesn't really care what they do.

How really, could a 'immune system' make agreements with 'guardians', instead of annihilating them, or trying too? It seems that the 'guardians' have come to an understanding, at least, with the azath's, which leads me to something that can think, if in a different way than the bipedal creatures we have encountered.

[MORE NOK SPOILERS, IF YOU READ AND COMPLAIN, ABYSS GETS TO EAT YOUR BRAIN.]

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Spoiler

that said, there was a definite power boost to Temper when he accepted the Guardian job - enough to let him face the Jaghut former guardian. Of course, just a few pages earlier, the House tried to eat him too.

I need to pick up NOK so bad. But on the other side, perhaps Temper, by avoiding the first attempt at powering up by the house (his avoiding being eaten), proved to the house that perhaps if the house recruited him, and gave him some of its power, instead of the other way, he would be strong enough to protect it from the Jaghut former? Again, that sort of testing gives hints, in my opinion, that there is THINKING going on there, not just a dna-programmed reaction.

[/MORE NOK SPOILERS, IF YOU READ AND COMPLAIN, ABYSS GETS TO EAT YOUR BRAIN.]

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On the other hand, it seems the Azath itself cut a deal with Silchas to gut Kettle when they arrived in the Refugim and he got the Scaby finnest.

All of which is to say, i wonder whether the Azath are a 'beyond human comprehension' type thing, but The Silchas thing seems to suggest you're right.

I am all for the 'beyond human understanding' view, as they are somehow related to the elemental forces, all of which aren't even known of by the (edit: mortals in the) series, much less understood.

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- Abyss, will never buy a bridge from a House.

As long as its the guardian, or you figure out some way to commune with the house, theres no NO's around, and the bridge is off house property, and the deal isn't something like your life, I don't see why not...

-Obdigore, just clauses only.

[Lisheo]

NoK spoiler!

Spoiler

the drunk old man and Terench never specifically said they worked for the Azath, yet they were the ones who passed Guardianship on to Temper. But the impression I got from Gothos and Moby and Raest as Guardians was they could not leave the Azath Houses.

The Azath personify elemental forces.... Are they Elder?

[Aptorian]

they existed in the elder times so yes, they are elder.

[Lisheo]

Ah, ok then.