[Sinisdar Toste]

im not so sure, in the MT prologue Gothos lists osseric as an elder god. its just all so confused, osseric, rake and ruin know something, but they aint tellin.

[Optimus Prime]

Well Osseric may be an Elder God...but I also think Rake is an Elder God....we already know he rejects his godhood...but I think he is Elder.

[Sinisdar Toste]

elder perhaps, but not an elemental, i guess i was kind of speculating that FL and osric are one and the same

[Optimus Prime]

Hmmm...damnit SE! *shakes fist* You gotta give us something!!!

Silchas wanted the godhood...but Rake was the only one who had it....hmmm...and he turned his back on it.

Osseric seems to be doing the same thing with the Liosan...but i get the feeling he never was their God to begin with....

Confusing..to say the least.

[Sinisdar Toste]

haha and im sure that SE would simply wrap his cloak around himself and say, "I have given you more than enough evidence to deduce the truth" then vanish in a puff of logic.

[Mentalist]

meh.. Rake can't breally be Elder, I don't think.. Elders (esp. the draconeans), played parts in the Holds, having their own tiles + everything

Rake is Clearly part of the Deck. If anything, he's a Deck God, and in the upcoming conflict that's foreshadowed in the Errant powering up the Holds, you know, the one b/w Elder & Deck Gods, he''l def be on the side of the Deck..

[Venerus]

Hey all. Longtime stalker, first time poster. Please don't hate all over me.

There’s a lot of discussion about QB’s increase in power, and I really don’t find the “Icarium fight theory� very satisfying. Give the author some credit -- Erikson is a much more deliberate and careful writer than that. Here’s my 2 cents, for what it’s worth.

In The Bonehunters, Quick Ben finds himself up against an Edur warlock attack. He throws up what is meant to be an illusion (he admits after that he thought it was just that) but which becomes real after the Eres' touch.

The short and dirty version is that the Eres' touch has made Quick much more powerful by tying him into the most Elder "hold" there is. This makes a lot of sense, and not even in a Deus ex Machina kind of unsatisfying way -- please bear with me, it's long.


In much of the series, it's emphasized how powerful old things are, the Elder warrens, the holds, the founding races, etc etc. In fact, Tool even refers to Tellann as a time, not a warren. Given Erikson's background, this doesn't surprise. Archaeology and anthropology are the study of long-dead or long-gone times, how they built, lived and fell -- how time unfolded. As it ties into the study of history, archaeology and anthropology are also, importantly, the study of how we we came to be who we are.

"Squash a bug in the paleolithic, destroy mankind" or "a stitch in time saves nine" or something equally trite summarizes it nicely, I think -- the further back in the past an action occurred, the more potent the effect on today (and the more difficult to predict). The Elder-theme of the series reflects this, I think. When the Eres touched Quick, she forged a connection between him and the first beings to walk the earth...earth? The Malazan world. Extending this, even if Quick's power's were "only" illusion, they'd still have a real impact on behavior, and therefore history, and therefore the present day. His power didn't grow, so much as his influence did.

I *believe* this at least partially explains why the Elder are so powerful, but also why their power is more raw, blunt, and harder to control. It might also explain why the current human-aspected warrens are so much more subtle and precise. It's harder to predict what will happen and what the results of an action will be the further in time it is from the intended outcome. This might also explain why "everyone" could be a mage, but the best ones have either great intelligence, or great natural intuition (adepts?) -- channeling the powers of the holds and warrens takes a lot of careful manipulation and follow-through on consequences, easier to do when the warrens are newer.

So there you have it. I think Erikson's take is: Old things are potent because their influence cascades down the ages, forming our times. And Quick is more powerful now than he was before because the Eres forged a connection between him and the way-back-when.


Er, of course, it could also be that Quick just learned that when he's in contact with olden things, he has much more power (for the same reasons as listed above). So maybe just being where he was, in the throwback to the Imass golden years, allowed him to have a connection to the past in the way he needed to give him the extra boost.

I know this theory has been floated less floridly, but it seems people keep ignoring it, and I've read nothing conclusive that suggests it's way off track.

[Mentalist]

first of all, welcome to the forum!
Secondly, it's an interesting theory, and I have stipulated something along these lines (although in a much less serious and grounded form), but there is one point where I tend to disagree with you.
Namely, it is the "Elder=strong" theme. We have seen numeorus times how beings considered champions in their days beings that everyone feared and thought no one could beat were taken out in fashion that soundly contradicted all the expectations and the buildup towards them.
While your idea of Elder things being able to effect a a more profound change is intriguing, i'd add a clarification to it, and. specifically, I would like to separate the Eres'al from all the various other Elder powers. She is different--according to Bottle in tBH "she is the last being in our evolutionary change free of corruption" As such, her power is still primal, pure and thus would have much more profound influence than that of everything that came after. This might have something to o with the involvement of chaos, since we are never really sure as to what Bottle refers to as "Corruption"
That being said, a really nice theory, have some rep!

[Aptorian]

It's a well thought out theory, this Eres and the elder idea, but I don't see the need. It's not like when Quick opens up against Iccy the first time in the cave he goes " Oooh, look, I'm so much stronger! Oh, wait, it's still not working!"

Re-read all the quick parts in RG. He's shaky in the start. He doesn't dare use too much power because he feels raw. he's ratled. He then remarks that the fight, not "some flue" he's coming down with, made him stronger because it stretched him. Quick didn't feel any effect after the ships clashed.

As for the god discussion above. Osserc is an elder god, seeing as he's mentioned as such more than once. We just don't know what type of elder god they mean. Osserc isn't just connected to light, he's also the king? of the serc warren. Osserc = Serc. If Rake had been worshipped back in the elder times he would also be called an elder god.

[Abyss]

The Eres theory is as good as any we have, tho i note that the Eres' power was channelled via Bottle, who has not, as far as we know, received a similar power up, and exhausted himself in RG.

- Abyss, figures it was all the ghost wank...

[Mcflury]

every damned maged was used up in RG... even QB would've been used up...
Honoustly, even Beak was at the end of his powers (and we can say he was the most powerful mage at the place) when he had to save the whole army... he said so in his mind I believe, something like this: 'I'm tired, but I'll keep my candles burning, just for you, since you're my friends' or something like that.
anyways, he was almost used up

[Zendog13]

Well...we don't know enough about Bottle really. Sure he exhausted himself out in RG but only after how many days of severe use? Plus, the farther their campaign took them inland, the more he was forced to tap his powers. We have yet to see Bottle "unleashed" in the way we have seen QB. So comparing them might be a bit unfair. Not saying they are equal in powers but let's wait a bit and see what SE has in store.

[Sinisdar Toste]

true dat, true dat. i wouldnt compare bottle to QB because he may be resourceful and adaptive, but QB has resourceful and adaptive trademarked. plus he has 12 souls.

[Mcflury]

Isn't the kind of magic Bottle uses different from QB's too? Didn't Bottle use some elder kind of magic? (Beak mentions it when he's thinking about bottle, he's talking about the fact that bottle can see through the eyes of any animal, which is a certain candle... and I think Beak said it was an elder candle or something)
Anyways, it seems Bottle has a way bigger understanding of Elder magic than QB at the least, and that's already pretty impressive

[Lisheo]

Bottle uses spirit magic, old magic, and dabbles with Death and Shadow, and is very knowledgeable because of Agayla's teachings whereas QB is a master of the warrens, the new magic, but seemingly dabbles with the old, and learnt all he knows from his dozen souls. They are counterparts, of sorts. I reckon their power levels are about the same.

[Mcflury]

well, when we first met Bottle Fid wanted QB to take a look at Bottle (so QB could tell Fid if Bottle is actually as good as himself or stuff like that). Eventually, alas, we never really heard QB say something in the lines of him believing Bottle is his match... so that's some info SE should still give us in one of the following books.

[Dancer+]

For the moment I believe Bottle is inferior to QB, they have different powers and techniques which will obscure the entire relative power levels. I haven't seen enough evidence yet to suggest Bottle is as good or superior to QB in his usefulness, let alone outright power.

[Quick~]

Mcflury;242017 said:

Isn't the kind of magic Bottle uses different from QB's too? Didn't Bottle use some elder kind of magic? (Beak mentions it when he's thinking about bottle, he's talking about the fact that bottle can see through the eyes of any animal, which is a certain candle... and I think Beak said it was an elder candle or something)

Bottle gets described as

"an old style warlock from the Jakata people who were the first people on Malaz island after the stormriders retreated."

--

Regarding Quick and the sisters, I tend to think he has improved in his personal raw magical power enough that he was able to batter them with repeat waves of sorcery. Certainly he started with the earth but afterwards he's still pummeling them for a while with waves (that clearly come from him, aimed directly at them) till they turn on each other

His intelligence is a big part of what wins him things and was the decisive point of how the fight with the sisters went. I wonder (or perhaps missed) what the reason for the stone he apparently slipped Menandore was, whether it was a lodestone for his sorcery so it was sure to hit her or something else entirely.

--

On Quick and being a soletaken, I've wondered for a long time whether it might be possible that he actually has more than one soletaken form. One coming from the soletaken priestess I'd imagine, but he could always have one himself and there's 2 un-specified souls in him as well.

It'd fit quite neatly with the "shapeshifting bastard" comment Ammanas makes if he was able to veer into more than one other form.

[Aptorian]

The peble was used to listen in on the three sisters conversation. How three magical beings didn't notice the bug I don't know.

[Gem Windcaster]

Bottle is mysterious. Maybe even more mysterious than Quick. I'm not sure.