[Zanth13]

Aptorian;238791 said:

Honor is for dead people, something that is proved more than once in the series. Of course treachery bares it's own punishment as the Andii believe.

bloodeye cant testify to this, and very soon (well by 2011 anyway) Kallor will able to also , what with 80% of the known characters wanting him dead and all.

[Crop]

Zanth13;238797 said:

bloodeye cant testify to this, and very soon (well by 2011 anyway) Kallor will able to also , what with 80% of the known characters wanting him dead and all.

I can't think of any known characters(who knows who kallor is, of course) that wouldn't want him dead...

-I think even the CG is planning on killing him at some point;)

[Lisheo]

Dont forget Mallick Rel... And the Errant with Feather Witch, no doubt going to recieve some kind of horrible retribution in DoD.

-Lisheo, proud member of the LHTEC.

-The Errant, getting whats coming to him.
A beating from Mael.

[Mcflury]

feather witch was drowned by the errant, so I doubt she'll return. And I believe Mael already gave the Errant his beating, just before Mael goes and helps euh... forgot her name, the Acquitor (girlfriend of Trull) by lifting that big stone.

[Lisheo]

True, but he does deserve another beating, maybe from Paran. I could actually see Feather Witch coming back for some reason, but I really hope not!

[Skywalker]

Xander;238721 said:

I wonder who Rake/Osseric's true equal or counterpart was in the Elder House of Shadow? Presumably someone Scabandari murdered?

I vote for Edgewalker... I mean he is admittedly an Elemental walking around in Kurald Emurlahn, and know a huge number of its secrets

NoK spoilers...

Spoiler

Also, he is far too familiar with KE as well to be anything but a very old power within it. He hints at the fact that he either quested for/ sat on the throne of Shadow for a while. He seemed to be well acquainted with that critter trapped under a rock or some such (who in turn had been there for milliennia). This might make him an Edur Royal or something older.

[Deuce]

Aptorian;236877 said:

Getting off track here but regarding ST and Rake, we're talking about two different powers.

Rake is a very powerfull unalligned ascendant warriormage whilst ST is the god of shadow. Rake taps into darkness, ST IS shadow. They are doing two different things and if it came to a magical showdown ST should naturally be a match for Rake. It's not like the old emperor is gonna pick a fistfight with Rake

Not sure my memory serves me right as it fails me more often than I would like. But reading GOTM I remember something along the lines when Rake was with Paran and confronted by ST that Rake made it seem that ST is not his match and that he could handle ST as long as Cotillion wasn't around. Then again he could have meant they are even but that he likes his chances as long as it is one on one.

I pretty much through the ranks they hold within a House out of my mind when it comes to characters like Osseric and Rake because neither desire to ascend further within those respective Houses they represent (if they even have the possibility) so wouldn't grade them against another just based on a position held.

[Aptorian]

Logically, no matter how badass Rake is, in a magic wielding contest Rake shouldn't be able to beat ST. ST is the god of shadow, Rake is "merely" the champion of darkness.

As I've stated before it's not like ST would challenge Rake to a duel of swords.

[Kalahinen]

So much for logic...

[Aptorian]

O'rly?

[Optimus Prime]

Aptorian;238956 said:

Logically, no matter how badass Rake is, in a magic wielding contest Rake shouldn't be able to beat ST. ST is the god of shadow, Rake is "merely" the champion of darkness.

As I've stated before it's not like ST would challenge Rake to a duel of swords.

Not really. Rake is actually a God. There is a reason Shadowthrone did not openly challenge Rake in GotM. I don't know who would win a fight but it has nothing to do with ST being a God and Rake not being one...since that isn't the case.

Rake doesn't seem like a character that can be taken out by conventional means. It's going to be something dirty and underhanded....which ST would be good at...not direct attack.

[Aptorian]

Perhaps my logic is flawed but here's like I see it.

To use a crude analogy Shadowthrone is the supervisor in charge of all the water in the shadowdam holding the key to the floodgates. Rake is a fairly large recipient of the water in the Darkness dam but he's still only using a tap derived from the dam. Rake is using a waterhose compared to STs floodgates.

This analogy is of coursed based on my assumption that some kind of other force is governing Darkness, Rake can't just use darkness like he wants, like ST is supposed to be handling shadow.

I also realise that nothing is as straightforward as comparing tittles and jobdescriptions in Eriksons crazy power schematic.

[Skywalker]

Consider the following mess of facts:

Anomander turned his back to Mother Dark, so he has less than all of her power at his command.
However the gate to Kurald Galain is stuck in his sword and fleeing from Chaos... so the he may get a "all lines in this route are busy" if he calls on all his power
The unveiling of KG at Coral was obviously awesome so indicates Rake is pretty goshdarn powerful
Shadowthrone is probably ruling a fragment of KE
ST's high priest can give Dejim Nebrahl the willies
ST is a god, who commands (grudging) respect from everyone including Sukul Ankhadu/ Menandore/ Hood etc.
QB may be an uber-powerful mage who handles three draconean ascendants at once (arguably), but he treads carefully, and prepares for a long time before messing with his former master

So yeah, long story short, what Apt said is true...

Aptorian;239008 said:

nothing is as straightforward as comparing tittles and jobdescriptions in Eriksons crazy power schematic.

[Optimus Prime]

Well said.

That was a good analogy..even if I don't completely agree with it. I mean...isn't it somewhere in MoI that Korlat questions Rake's order to unleash the full might of the Tiste Andii should Kallor get out of line? That much power supposedly hasn't been unleashed since I think one of the chainings right?

This makes you wonder on a lot of different fronts.

a) Gothos mentioned he was glad there were so few Tiste Andii...and 40 of them participated in the chaining right? (I may be wrong) They are freakishly powerful.
If Rake thinks it will take a full unveiling of KG to take out Kallor....holy fucks Kallor is a bad ass? But then we see Rake easily intimidate and threaten the decrepit one....right? So is Rake equal in power to A LOT of Tiste Andii?
c) HOW POWERFUL IS THE CG!?!?!? How many did it take to chain him?

So what I'm getting at is Shadowthrone is a power...but let's face it...he is still a new god...and like Quick Ben...he uses guile and cunning as much or more than straight up power......

And getting back to the main topic...Trull cannot compare to Rake in that way...or Osseric...who is listed often as an Elder God in the series...right?

[Mataglap]

And Shadowthrone's ways of dealing with things aren't based on brute force and raw power, but manipulation and trickery. It would be a pretty big failure of Shadowthrone's to be in a situation where he has to exercise raw power.

[Optimus Prime]

True, but I want to make it clear that I don't think ST and Cotillion are wimps. They are very powerful, but they didn't get to where they are with outright shows of power. They orchestrated their plan with their minds....with subterfuge...with painstaking planning and honestly...some crazy gambling.

Sounds a lot like Quick Ben to me.

[Mataglap]

Exactly. ST vs. AR in a cage match is like "Enterprise vs. Galactica". Simply doesn't make sense except as nerdy fanboi argument, and has nothing to do with the story.

[Mentalist]

Well, the unveiling at Coral... that involved pretty much ALL the pureblood Tiste Andii left on Wu (cept for Andarist and Nimander's crew)
and then there's the issue of "just wtf is a warren?" again....

[Sinisdar Toste]

hahaha that question will haunt us forever

and about the damn analogy(do you see what i did there?), what skywalker said is true, ST only rules a portion of shadow, albeit a large one, and he sits on the true throne, but im sure that the overall power of shadow has been majorly depleated because of its sundering, so he may operate the floodgates, but the amount of water behind those floodgates could be so much greater than it actually is.

now this could be redundant or ignorant, i dont know, but ST and Cot. really want KE to be unsundered.

[Lisheo]

According to the books, STs plan is to occupy EVERY throne. Yet, when you think about it, hes only taking the dangerous ones: KE was sundered and vulnerable to the CG's plans, and we can assume ST and Cottys presences stabilized it a bit. The First Throne? Commands an army of undead. Enough said. I mean, look what the Seven of the Dead Fires can do on their own.