[Obdigore]

Spindrift;236838 said:

what with all the wanton raping and all, i imagine there's a few.

Yes he does. It says at least 2 of the teblor woman he takes get pregnant.

[Richard]

Karsa's actions definately impacted heavily on the rest of the teblor tribes. His warpath crossed several and in a least one case wiped out a whole village. (His rape of the women implied as much to me. Hence his offer of sanctuary with his tribe.) The number of encounters with other tribes killed many. His war against "the children" has also probably resulted in a renewed assault on the Teblor.

However I don't think the Teblor will remember him much except with malice. After all he hasn't come back which implies failure and if other Teblor did find out how his raid ended they will be even more convinced of his death.

Failures are rarely remembered (celebrated at least) and the information Karsa's people have to remember him by does not lead me to believe they will miss him.

I freely admit I hate Karsa. I am very sympathetic to the original post.

For me Karsa annoys. When he was first introduced he was interesting, house of chains fleshed him out and gave us insight to a whole new kingdom and yet more malazans. (Showing us grizzled malazan veterans are all over the place.) However as his part has grown he hasn't. If anything he has regressed to that perpetuately arrogant bombastic thug he was at the start of House of chains. Tougher, meaner and a hell of a lot more dangerous but still a thug completely convinced of his supremacy.

What makes this so frustrating is that this conviction that was so thoroughly quashed early on in house of chains (repeatedly so) seems to now be solidly backed up. Yet he remains the same thug. Barging into situations and yelling his intent whilst not paying much attention to the situation beyond his goal.

This came to a head in Reapers gale with his fight against Rhulad. In midnight tides it's quite clearly implied that each time he dies he comes back stronger. Either physically or just more skilled isn't made clear although it feels skill is what improves. However this has degenerated in Reapers gale. A theloman champion is referenced as having killed him 12 times (I believe) before Rhulad finally kills him. Rhulad was not a useless swordsmen to begin with after his many deaths he should have become a lot more dangerous. Yet the fight didn't just feel like an afterthought it was a complete shame. Most of the Karsa's fights have become increasingly one-sided. This makes them feel flat, dull and cartoonish. Like some Jean-Claude Van Dam he will rise from the most grievous punishment to triumph over all.

Every other character in the series has some sort of support network to make up for their deficiencies whether in the form of others or layers of defenses which others must break through. Paran is about the only one who I can think of who does not rely on others and tends to walk in blind. Kalam has done the stumble in and conquer all but both these characters seem more humble in their approach to such situations and rarely come away unchanged. Karsa seems to become ever more unstoppable and overconfident. He is not a careful creature and normally those do not last long. Even the lucky ones.

[Aptorian]

Richard;236907 said:

Karsa's actions definately impacted heavily on the rest of the teblor tribes. His warpath crossed several and in a least one case wiped out a whole village. (His rape of the women implied as much to me. Hence his offer of sanctuary with his tribe.) The number of encounters with other tribes killed many. His war against "the children" has also probably resulted in a renewed assault on the Teblor.

The warriors of the village who's wives they raped was the ones they managed to elude. While the men were out hunting the three had their way. I remember they met them again, so they may very well have been dangerously weakened, but that village wasn't their entire tribe. The villages survivors will have been shamed and Karsas tribe will have won honor in the face of the other.

Karsa didn't offer sanctuary with his tribe because the others were dead, he offered sanctuary to the women who got pregnant - so that they wouldn't be slain or shun. Karsa then learned that this kind of stuff has happened before and that the women would never even mention Karsa and the other twos stay.

Richard;236907 said:

However I don't think the Teblor will remember him much except with malice. After all he hasn't come back which implies failure and if other Teblor did find out how his raid ended they will be even more convinced of his death.

Failures are rarely remembered (celebrated at least) and the information Karsa's people have to remember him by does not lead me to believe they will miss him.

If they do believe him dead and they've had no word, then yes, he will have failed. Whether they believe it is better to have tried and slaughtered than to never have slaughtered at all, is of course the question. Is Karsas father normal or is the attitude of the grandfather prevelant?

If they've had word of his actions in the other villages, which would have been warped by being retold a hundred times, I think they would be proud. Even if it led to war.

As I wrote above we don't know if the teblor tribes have shouldermen or women, Karsas growing "efficacy" would burn like fire in their dreams. Every Teblor elder would know of this terrible son of the Uryd.

Also perhaps that one of the Unbound that is manipulating the Teblor, the half face one and her foundlings, they might have an influence on Karsas legend aswell.

[Optimus Prime]

Good points.

I expect Karsa to have to deal with a lot of resistance to his plans/ideas of taking over the tribes. I don't think he is going to just waltz back in and say "Witness!" (Yes I know this would be a first ) and they all fall onto their knees in worship.

I got the feeling that karsa's father was viewed as an outcast/weakling.

[Richard]

Aptorian;236913 said:

Karsa didn't offer sanctuary with his tribe because the others were dead, he offered sanctuary to the women who got pregnant - so that they wouldn't be slain or shun. Karsa then learned that this kind of stuff has happened before and that the women would never even mention Karsa and the other twos stay.

I accept that my paragraph was loosely worded but you seem to have misread at least part of what I said. When I claimed he wiped out a village, I at no point meant he killed a whole tribe. What I meant was that his actions likely resulted in the end of that village. Firstly the men of the tribe who caught up with them. Karsa and friends killed most if not all of them. A hefty blow to any village. But more importantly Karsa and co raped every woman in the tribe. The way it felt was that this action alone will have effectively shamed and exiled most of the women involved. Certainly all those who got pregnant. For me this would be enough damage to disband the village and move them to other villages.

My comment on sanctuary was specifically aimed at the women Karsa raped.

Aptorian;236913 said:

As I wrote above we don't know if the teblor tribes have shouldermen or women, Karsas growing "efficacy" would burn like fire in their dreams. Every Teblor elder would know of this terrible son of the Uryd.

Also perhaps that one of the Unbound that is manipulating the Teblor, the half face one and her foundlings, they might have an influence on Karsas legend aswell.

Whether they have shouldermen and women isn't so much of an issue. The Unbound definately infect the dreams of the Teblor. That much is clear from House of chains. However we've no information as to whether the Teblor know of Karsa's later exploits and current status. So I don't want to speculate too much on what they know of him at the moment.

Despite saying this Karsa did leave an impressive trail of destruction. Those involved will remember him. The question is why would anyone fondly remember someone who basically went out to kick up as many hornets nests as he could find? (Who is also not around to answer the consequences.)

I find your final comments a very romantic notion. Possible but I do hope not.

[Aptorian]

Richard;236924 said:

I accept that my paragraph was loosely worded but you seem to have misread at least part of what I said. When I claimed he wiped out a village, I at no point meant he killed a whole tribe. What I meant was that his actions likely resulted in the end of that village. Firstly the men of the tribe who caught up with them. Karsa and friends killed most if not all of them. A hefty blow to any village. But more importantly Karsa and co raped every woman in the tribe. The way it felt was that this action alone will have effectively shamed and exiled most of the women involved. Certainly all those who got pregnant. For me this would be enough damage to disband the village and move them to other villages.

My comment on sanctuary was specifically aimed at the women Karsa raped.

Again, those that got pregnant are going to claim their husbands did it. Or perhaps they have herbs for this stuff. This explanation of course hinges on the idea that the men would shortly return, if they were gone for months, some pretty nifty arguments a la virgin mary would be needed

Richard;236924 said:

Whether they have shouldermen and women isn't so much of an issue. The Unbound definately infect the dreams of the Teblor. That much is clear from House of chains. However we've no information as to whether the Teblor know of Karsa's later exploits and current status. So I don't want to speculate too much on what they know of him at the moment.

Despite saying this Karsa did leave an impressive trail of destruction. Those involved will remember him. The question is why would anyone fondly remember someone who basically went out to kick up as many hornets nests as he could find? (Who is also not around to answer the consequences.)

I find your final comments a very romantic notion. Possible but I do hope not.

It is a romantic notion that honor and glory is found in counting coop and displaying scars, but that does seem to be the notion of the Teblor tribes. Would they oppose some supposed leader not more than a teenager in teblor standards just wallsing in and strutting his stuff? Probably. Karsa would be challenged, but if the words of his deeds had indeed spread they would count against the words of the wise men who have never gone to war. Or don't walk around with a huge sword of legend.

As always the discussing is useless because Erikson will most likely do the most unexpected.

[Mentalist]

hmmm.. seems im one of the few that actually defends Karsa here...
to start off: Karsa's father was a total outcast, plus hes dead now for it.
We are unsure if the unbound are still on the Plateau, partially, b/c they moved with Karsa to &C and got their swords back, partially b/c at least 4 of them are dead. So Karsa can waltz in, say "I killed our gods, witness!!!'

also, about he Rhulad thing-once again, am major point of contention is whether it was Rhulad or the sword that was in charge. like to think it was the sword. Besides, both Rhulad and Karsa were tools of the CG, so might have helped Karsa over Rhulad.

All the talking b/w Karsa and Samar Dev in tBH makes it clear (for me, at least), that Karsa has changed--he realizes more about the world, he aknowledges its complexity, etc. it just so happens that whenever he has to fight something, he doesn't back down. But he came to some conclusions in HoC--a fact that is obvious from the way he officially states that Malazans are not his enemies and doesn's just rusht the entire 14th....

to sum it up: Changes in Karsa are subtle, but they're there.

[Zanth13]

kud13;236926 said:

hmmm.. seems im one of the few that actually defends Karsa here...
to start off: Karsa's father was a total outcast, plus hes dead now for it.
We are unsure if the unbound are still on the Plateau, partially, b/c they moved with Karsa to &C and got their swords back, partially b/c at least 4 of them are dead. So Karsa can waltz in, say "I killed our gods, witness!!!'

also, about he Rhulad thing-once again, am major point of contention is whether it was Rhulad or the sword that was in charge. like to think it was the sword. Besides, both Rhulad and Karsa were tools of the CG, so might have helped Karsa over Rhulad.

All the talking b/w Karsa and Samar Dev in tBH makes it clear (for me, at least), that Karsa has changed--he realizes more about the world, he aknowledges its complexity, etc. it just so happens that whenever he has to fight something, he doesn't back down. But he came to some conclusions in HoC--a fact that is obvious from the way he officially states that Malazans are not his enemies and doesn's just rusht the entire 14th....

to sum it up: Changes in Karsa are subtle, but they're there.

It also seems to me IMO that Karsa has developed a since of right and wrong(which has continued to be added upon), something he never had before...
IE when he decided the Malazans were not his enemy...and has just kept adding to it.

[Aptorian]

Karsa's father is dead? I totally missed this, where do you have this from?

[Sinisdar Toste]

only thing i can recall is that quote from earlier on in the thread, that neither synyg nor pahlk will live to see karsas return. i took it to mean pahlk was gonna kill synyg before he died.

[Mentalist]

in some part of Book 1 of HoC (once again, left books at uni, so no quoute), there's a scene where someone (I think the army of thrown-away kids) is ordered by one of the Unbound to kill Karsa's dad....

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

It will be interesting to see how Karsa handles the women he raped; particularly the chieftain's daughter whom he "named" Dayliss. He will have to make up for that shaming, I would think.

[Zanth13]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;236996 said:

It will be interesting to see how Karsa handles the women he raped; particularly the chieftain's daughter whom he "named" Dayliss. He will have to make up for that shaming, I would think.

yeah with a boot to the face

If/when Karsa returns to his people, he cant show to much weakness/change not at once anyway... it will probably take time....

he will deff. not be going around apologizing any time soon.

[Shuglin]

about Rhulad and Karsa's fight wouldn't you think that the CG would have helped Karsa kill Rhulad? I thought the sword was supposed to belong to Karsa all along or so I understood maybe wrongly from his convo with the CG at the end of RG.

[Aptorian]

Shuglin;237022 said:

I thought the sword was supposed to belong to Karsa all along or so I understood maybe wrongly from his convo with the CG at the end of RG.

To quote Rhulad, he lies!

[Mentalist]

or... to make it all REALLY messed up--the SWORD wanted Karsa to win... and the CG just went with the flow....

[Lisheo]

I love Karsa... Karsa just kicked the crap out of Rhulad and the CG just decided hed give the sword to Karsa. He wanted the best warrior of the world as his puppet. The one who could break his chains. Rhulad wasnt supposed to get as far as he did. Thats my theory.

[MecnunK]

Agree with first post, karsa seems to have become too strong/unbeatable and thus boring although there have been interesting changes to his personality and perspective where he is now more banalnced.

The fight with the seguleh, where he stamps on the ground and ground shakes enough to unbalance the seguleh? I mean wtf..although I cannot recall if that stamp on ground was when icarium landed or after..

Karsa's fight with rhulad was extremely disappointing..I expected much more from it.

Karsa and Icarium not getting it on was one of the things I was really looking forward to in Reaper's gale yet that became such a lame encounter its not worth talking about...

Overall though I didnt think much of reaper's gale generally barring the red-mask storyline and even that ended pretty lame IMO..

I would really like Karsa to meet Killy (not that its going to happen)

[Gothos]

the OP has to be one of the most pathethic ZOMG NERF whines I've seen, and after WoW forums that says a lot.
you rail at him being such a badass while "not different from other Teblor!" while you've got nothing against people like Mok, like Dassem Ultor, like Brys Beddict, like Trull Sengar. like Anomander Rake.
recall Paran talking about ascending being an attribute of will. a normal person punches, and will break someone's nose. an Ascendant punches, and a castle wall goes down. it's in the purest here. also, remember, as Ublala noted, that Karsa is of rather exceptionally pure Toblakai blood, and what do we actually know about Toblakai?
you're also forgetting proper matching. make a dragon grab him and throw down into a pool of lava and he's not coming out. a squad of Malazan sappers and he'd be Ranalled all over the place. his confidence comes from knowing, what is to be done, and what he's capable of. how does he know? well, it's not stated. which doesn't mean he doesn't have gods whispering in his ear.
further, about Quick Ben. I liked Hedge's question about how much longer the 11 extra souls plan on hiding inside him. he's a vessel of their power, remember that. furthermore, what makes him really dangerous is his wits. recall his fight with the Sisters, he didn't rock their charge with straight force, he just lifted the earth to meet it, just as easy as he dug a hole under Kallor in MoI. he's smart, he's mean, and now (surprisingly!) even more powerful than before (ain't you wondering why? no cos you're a mage fanboy)
one thing I sorely missed in RG was extensive passages involving Karsa and Samar Dev. it's one of the most interesting characters in the series, along with Paran, Fiddler and Rhulad.

also,

Quote

If Karsa continues to evolve from his current neanderthal outlook on life, into something that passes for a decent person that isn't prone to filleting a haplass guard because he "looked at me funny" then yeah, I might end up liking him more

I assume you hate the Seguleh just as much then?

[Zanth13]

Gothos;237501 said:

the OP has to be one of the most pathethic ZOMG NERF whines I've seen, and after WoW forums that says a lot.
you rail at him being such a badass while "not different from other Teblor!" while you've got nothing against people like Mok, like Dassem Ultor, like Brys Beddict, like Trull Sengar. like Anomander Rake.

How could any one not like Mok... he is a little ball of awsome


like chuck norris in a can