[Mcflury]

I agree with Gothos, but, Gothos... one point: is it really said Quick Ben actually grew stronger? I mean, couldn't it just be he only released a certain amount of his power before (you know, like only ever using 30% of his powers, so, I don't know... so the gods don't notice him too much or something?), but now, when he knows all is at stake (the gods are at war, and he's being followed by cotillion) he just reveals his bigger strength?
I too am wondering when his souls will split again though... and what I'm wondering about is: will QB, at that point, even be able to reach Beak's heels?

PS: No, I cannot and will not get over Beak's dying... he was the biggest, funniest and most friendly soul I've ever met in those books... he was great (and we all know he was awesomely smart too, even though everybody else thought he was a retard of some sorts). Hood take you for letting Beak die that soon SE!! (well, I have to admit... It was a pretty gorgious death... almost made me cry because of its beauty)

[Gothos]

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the place with all the living Imass when talking to Hedge QB said that after being put to the limit (I think he was referring to his scratch with Icarium) he's now "nastier".

[Mcflury]

well, can't remember that... I do can remember the point where, after they just scared away Silchas Ruin, Fiddler thinks about QB and says 'I can't remember him being that nasty' or something like that, and a bit before, after QB kinda beat the crap out of those dragons, Hedge thinking he never saw QB unleash such power before... but both of those moments don't mean QB suddenly actually got stronger...

And even when you recall correctly: QB saying he's now nastier (after the fight with Icarium) doesn't mean he actually got stronger, it just means he uses his power in a more vicious way... so I still don't think anywhere in the book it is said QB did become stronger then before. I'm not saying he didn't get stronger, I'm just saying it's nowhere explicitly said so, so it isn't a thing we know for sure.

PS: Talking about Icarium made me think about the last scene where he shows, when he activates that machine in Letheras, and he says something in the lines of 'Well, if K'Rul can do it, why wouldn't I?' (had to do with Icarium spilling blood or something)... what does that mean? (do we actually know, or is it a secret?) I mean, did Icarium just create another form of magic, besides the Holds and Warrens (since it was K'Rul who created the warrens with his blood, wasn't it?). Anyways, could I get some more info on Icarium and what he was doing there in Letheras exactly? I didn't completely got that part.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well iccy was there because the Nameless idiots wanted him to take down rhulad, they manipulated him via, taralack veed, but there was some sort of destiny thing going on, cuz when iccy got there his intuition started going haywire. thats cause of the machine he made there, he was 'coming home'.

beyond that most people think he was using the machine to get his memory back somehow.

[amphibian]

Icarium started distrusting Taralack Veed before he fought Quick Ben near the Throne of Shadow, but he somehow knew that wherever Veed was leading him would be somewhere he actually wanted to go.

Anyways, the Edur brought Icarium to Letheras because Rhulad set up this global search for Champions willing to fight the Emperor of a Thousand Deaths.

Cerveza Fiesta said

Quote

As for the "if k'rul did it, so can I" line (or whatever the exact reading was) in the context of my theory, he's referring to how K'rul bound himself to the earth in the process of creating the warrens. Since Iccy is half toblakai, he may be using a version of his personal warren to create a new and permanent warren and house in the pantheon aspected to memory or some such thing.

The part about "the machine was broken" might be alluding to Iccy's permanent death. If the machine didn't function properly then perhaps the process of turning himself into a warren didn't work out so well and Iccy got shredded.

I mostly agree with this, but I do not think that Icarium was shredded. It seems more likely that he either got a partial memory restoration or stepped through to someplace entirely else - like a certain Azath house containing Gothos.

[Jayblah]

Gothos;237501 said:

the OP has to be one of the most pathethic ZOMG NERF whines I've seen, and after WoW forums that says a lot.
you rail at him being such a badass while "not different from other Teblor!" while you've got nothing against people like Mok, like Dassem Ultor, like Brys Beddict, like Trull Sengar. like Anomander Rake.
recall Paran talking about ascending being an attribute of will. a normal person punches, and will break someone's nose. an Ascendant punches, and a castle wall goes down. it's in the purest here. also, remember, as Ublala noted, that Karsa is of rather exceptionally pure Toblakai blood, and what do we actually know about Toblakai?
you're also forgetting proper matching. make a dragon grab him and throw down into a pool of lava and he's not coming out. a squad of Malazan sappers and he'd be Ranalled all over the place. his confidence comes from knowing, what is to be done, and what he's capable of. how does he know? well, it's not stated. which doesn't mean he doesn't have gods whispering in his ear.
further, about Quick Ben. I liked Hedge's question about how much longer the 11 extra souls plan on hiding inside him. he's a vessel of their power, remember that. furthermore, what makes him really dangerous is his wits. recall his fight with the Sisters, he didn't rock their charge with straight force, he just lifted the earth to meet it, just as easy as he dug a hole under Kallor in MoI. he's smart, he's mean, and now (surprisingly!) even more powerful than before (ain't you wondering why? no cos you're a mage fanboy)
one thing I sorely missed in RG was extensive passages involving Karsa and Samar Dev. it's one of the most interesting characters in the series, along with Paran, Fiddler and Rhulad.

also,


I assume you hate the Seguleh just as much then?

Did you even bother reading my posts in this thread before launching into your typically tactless diatribes? I boldfaced and underlined that part to serve as a hint before you flail at your keyboard and spit out another mostly stupid reply.

I specifically said if Anomander Rake were as much a douchebag as Karsa continues to be, I'd hate him too. I also touched on Quick Ben's nearly obscene powerlevels and my adoration (congrats on calling a self-admitted Quick Ben fanboy a... fanboy. Truly, bravo.) for him. Why? Because he's not a colossally insufferable twit a la Karsa (his relationship with Kalam, his camaraderie with his peers, etc.). He's also shown palpable fear and a sense of frailty in many of his battles (e.g. "spending" himself versus Icarium only to be saved by the Deus Eres Machina). Christ, even motherflippin' Cotillion has shown trepidation (exhibit A: Traveler). Contrast this to Karsa making every serious encounter he's been involved in since his teblori testicles descended a farce. Brys Beddict? Decent fella but if you must know, I thought his ressurection in Reaper's Gale was lame. Dassem Ultor? Don't know all that much about him at this stage, but I somehow doubt he is/was a Karsa-Kalibre™ douchenugget. As far as Seguleh are concerned; surely you realize how absurd this comparison is? From what we've seen in the series, they are minor "fluff" characters compared to the likes of Karsa, who is a major player. Beginning to sink in yet, Gothos?

It just so happens to be that he's one of the most difficult to like "heroes" the series has thus far. Is this subjective? Of course, as evidenced by this thread. I find him ridiculous. He also bores me and comes across as a Cool-Combat Sequence Generator moreso than a robust character so far. Much of my dislike of him is spurred on by the fact that I can't stand feeling like I should be rooting for this jackass at this stage of his development. That's why I hope he a) gets humbled really quick and becomes less of a gigantic dipshit becomes a bad-guy so I can do the Solja-Boy jig in real life when Icarium lays down the smackdown on him, as he rightfully should. :cool:

Many members of the Karsa's Kool Klub™ claim that, thus far through Reaper's Gale, Karsa has:
1. Not been a nigh-invincible giant who swats Deragoth as I swat a gnat (once he matured in late-HoC).
2. Grown in profound ways such that the Dalai Llama would seek out Karsa's wisdom.

I have seen little in the way of vulnerability thus far to Karsa and I have also not seen much in the form of personal growth (grats Karsa, you went from a two year old's mentality to a four year old's, here's a cookie). I agree with Where is Dassem? in that the rules set forth for Karsa means he is not going down via magical assblistering. I doubt a dragon, a vessel of magic at that, is taking him out. Personality-growth-wise (ick), he's still the laconic barbarian he was. He's still prone to maiming first, asking questions later (or never asking them at all, as is his wont) and being an insufferable ass.

At this point, I'm repeating myself. I've opined all that I care to opine on regarding Karsa (he's boring, he's ridiculous so far, I don't like him, yadda yadda) so I think I'll exit stage left unless I've gotta deal with more ill-informed replies to moi.

----

Regarding the Quick Ben being a nasty piece of work post-Icarium. My own belief is that he hasn't increased in Power Levels, rather, now that he's unleashed the beast he has become more inclined to unleash it more often instead of keeping himself mysterious in that regard.

[Aptorian]

To the OP after you above rant I'm beginning to believe you've only skimmed Karsas parts since the beginning of HoC.

None of the stuff you accuse Karsa of lacking(or possessing) is ultimatly true. But it's hard to discuss this with you, since you seem to only focus on Reapers Gale where we get a very limited appearance of Karsa. but lets try.

Generally from HoC through BH to RG, Karsa is developing. In HoC Karsa is enlightened. He becomes aware of the world and tries to adjust to this new world with its politics and swarming masses of humans. In BH we see his political or philisophical views of humanity and civilization come into focus. Karsa is not just adjusting, he is judging and finding human civilization too light. In RG his social and political outlook seems to have been fixed. He now see's himself as a leader and liberator. Someone better than what he see's is the norm.

As ofr his fights. I've always hated the Karsa vs Deragoth fight, but Erikson himself has commented on this. It's about the new and the old and Karsas sheer stupid will to win.

[Gothos]

my usual manner, eh. who the fuck are you? who's the little twit here?
onwards. you obviously wanted to miss the fact that the Seguleh do indeed kill anyone that "looks funny" at them, without warning nor hesitation, which is just what you accuse Karsa Orlong of.
and indeed, it seems like you haven't actually read any passages from past HoC Book One, or skimmed if anything.
you're repeating yourself, yes, and your shit sounds ridiculous even to your own ears, so you turn away and run for mommy. or to read Harry Potter.

[Mcflury]

okay, first of all: nothing's wrong with harry potter! Harry Potter is a well-written story, and the only thing that series lacks in my opinion is a decent definition of magic ('cause I just won't accept it's all in the wand...) (And I'm aware that in the HP universe the magic isn't all in the wand, but if you even read the story, you know my point). So, over to the serious shit now:

why do you people always start to curse when someone posts a message directly at you? I've found, in my own life, that decent argumentation is a better way to shut someone else up instead of cursing all the time (and yes, I'm aware of the fact that you guys start with cursing, and then go over to real argumentation)

About the argumentation:
About Karsa: You like QB better because he has cammarad...euh...friendship? Well, Karsa has a great friendship too: with his sword. And no, I don't mean this in the way he's basically just chopping everyone down, I mean this in the way his two best friends (okay, they only became his true friends after they died, but time is of no matter in terms of friendship) their souls are in this sword... the sword holds his friends. Also, about the chopping down any freaking soul he meets: Think about it, he needed those souls! I mean, I honoustly believe Karsa's been collecting all those souls all the time, just because he knew he'd need them, sooner or later. And so it turns out, he needed all those souls to get to the CG's island. Even better: Karsa should have killed some more people really, since it turned out he needed some more help to get souls towards him, so he could get to the CG. So, yeah, Karsa's been a bad-ass... but I believe he did this for a good reason.

about the seguleh: well, yes, they are idd some warrior-oriented people who just attack anyone "that looks funny". (well, not really... it's because the seguleh don't communicate like we do, and in their body-language, making eye-contact obviously means you're challenging the other person... so they don't just attack, it's a matter of cultural difference really). All I can say about these Seguleh though is this: I CAN'T WAIT UNTILL THE SEGULEH WITH NO STRIPES ON THE MASK COMES IN PLAY!!!! I mean, that little freaky Hood-cursed, Fener-fended bastard will probably be the best fighter in the whole series. Think about it really: Tool, the T'lan Imass first sword, so the best among them (and we know the t'lan imass are bad-ass swordfighters in the first place) was afraid he wouldn't be able to win a fight against a seguleh with 3 stripes on his mask.. and if you then keep in account those ranks really rise quickly (because 11stripes was dead-easy to tool, and euh.. was it 7 or5? doesn't matter, that other dude was already pretty hard for tool (okay, because tool didn't want to kill the bastard, but you get the point), so the difference between 11 stripes and 7 (or5) was really remarkable... so how about the difference between 3 and 1? ), you start to wonder who would win: our friendly mister Karsa (who would beat Icarium... because he was winning the fight before Mappo knocked him out) or the seguleh?

Anyways, back to topic: Karsa has indeed been cocky the last few times, but I think those times are over. Just because I think Karsa knew he had to collect all those souls for some point in the future, but now he doesn't need them anymore, and he will kill way less... I think. (anyways, the first thing Karsa's gonna do now is return to his homeland, make a freaking army of teblors... maybe kill his grandfather for being such a liar, and hopefully say sorry to his dad because he was all wrong... if his dad and granddad are still alive that is. Anyways, Karsa will raise and army, to go fight the CG... who will have built by that time another freaky mental army.)

[Illuyankas]

[pedantry]The other two with Mok - Senu and Thurule - weren't even ranked Seguleh, they were something Level Initiates. The Eleventh was the female one in RG, and the Seventh (or Eighth, it's confusing) was the one killed by Rake last on his tour of the Seguleh island.[/pedantry]

[Mcflury]

are you sure the female seguleh in RG had 11 stripes? I thought she only had 2 stripes really... well, it doesn't matter... the point is: when the seguleh with no stripes on his mask comes into play, things are bound to get freaky.

[Aptorian]

It would be fun to see Karsa lose a fight. I think Mok or the higher levels would be Karsas match.

Also remember Mok is probably even better than his level 3 posistion seeing as he was sent on the puntaive mission for political reasons within the Seguleh hierachy.

[Mentalist]

Series has a lot of awesome fighters, Seguleh First is one of them, don't know if he's the best though--Dassem Ultor is shown to be something in NoK, pliys there are also the Crimson Guard, and the Soldier of death who (might be) a Seguleh second that got wiped by Skinner + Rake, wh easily took out the Seventh..

I love the way the Seguleh are kind of used as a measure of skill in the series, but I doubt that we'll actually see a direct hierarchy at any point.

[Gothos]

Mcflury;237668 said:

why do you people always start to curse when someone posts a message directly at you? I've found, in my own life, that decent argumentation is a better way to shut someone else up instead of cursing all the time (and yes, I'm aware of the fact that you guys start with cursing, and then go over to real argumentation)

I blame my cultural background. after all we use cuss words as interpunction.

about Seguleh ranks: as I see it, it's never very certain at the top of the hierarchy, and they could be just being cautious and thinking of the risks. could be that Mok could, actually, defeat the First. or be evenly matched, which is enough to make someone sweat.

and Karsa has lost fights already.

[Aptorian]

kud13;237687 said:

Series has a lot of awesome fighters, Seguleh First is one of them, don't know if he's the best though--Dassem Ultor is shown to be something in NoK, pliys there are also the Crimson Guard, and the Soldier of death who (might be) a Seguleh second that got wiped by Skinner + Rake, wh easily took out the Seventh.

You are making a lot assumptions and missinterpretations here.

We know that Mok (maybe) was becoming a threat to the first. So we know how good the first is at least supposed to be, meaning freaking awesome.

We haven't seen the first or heard anything about what he's done, we just know he has to be the Chuck Norris of the mortals.

We don't know what happened with Skinner and the undead seguleh (supposed second), the seguleh was certainly not beaten.

Rake fought the seventh and had to flee the island by then, his immortal heart was thumping because of the tole of the fight.

[Mcflury]

seeing Karsa lose a fight would mean seeing Karsa die... sure, I can live with that, but it'd better be done in a great way! (as I'm typing this I see Gothos says Karsa already lost fights... which ones, appart from the Icarium fight (which karsa didn't really lose, since Mappo just knocked him out)?)

Also, what is the crimson guard anyways? I seem to think it's just an army trained REALLY good, so good that they reached a freaky level of swordfighting, so they can match even 5 toblakai at the same time... But what kind of people are they? Are they like malazans? And if so, what god do they pray to (since they kinda have the same structure like the grey swords, isn't it?) Anywas, what do we know about the crimson guard out of the malazan books of the fallen? (so if you already read that booklet 'the return of the crimson guard' or whatever it's called, or one of thos books, don't spoil it, I still want to read them myself )

and the seguleh: I honoustly do think they will come into play alot more, because wasn't it Karsa who once said he was gonna make an army out of them or something like that? I seem to remember a moment where someone met a seguleh and thinks about turning them into an army or something like that... not sure though.

[caladanbrood]

Mcflury;237693 said:

Also, what is the crimson guard anyways? I seem to think it's just an army trained REALLY good, so good that they reached a freaky level of swordfighting, so they can match even 5 toblakai at the same time... But what kind of people are they? Are they like malazans? And if so, what god do they pray to (since they kinda have the same structure like the grey swords, isn't it?) Anywas, what do we know about the crimson guard out of the malazan books of the fallen? (so if you already read that booklet 'the return of the crimson guard' or whatever it's called, or one of thos books, don't spoil it, I still want to read them myself )

They're from Unta, dedicated to Prince Kazz D'avore - nothing to do with any gods. The avowed are they elite fighters in the Crimson Guard, and as such a lot better than the others. Iron Bars was probably the third best fighter they have - very few of the others would have had any chance against the Toblakai;)

I don't think they're much like the Greyswords at all. They seem to be organised a bit like the Malazans, but with squads all consisting of an Avowed, a Mage and other hangers-on... whereas the malazans tend to keep their elites in seperate units from the regular army.

[Mentalist]

Well, the thing about he Awoved is.. they swore to restore the D'avores to their lands around Unta. And untill they do, they are basically unkillable, like Iron Bars (the only exception being Dassem Ultor, who kiled a bunch of them, but whether this was because of his allegiance to Hood or not is unknown)

Also, Karsa lost a fight to the FA calm, then he stormed a city and got owned. Then he escaped and was captured by a squad of the Ashok regiment. Then he was captured a gain in 7C (i think by a bunch of Gral)....and yeah, he was clubbed by Mappo, meaning he's not invincible.

[Zanth13]

Mcflury;237693 said:

seeing Karsa lose a fight would mean seeing Karsa die... sure, I can live with that, but it'd better be done in a great way! (as I'm typing this I see Gothos says Karsa already lost fights... which ones, appart from the Icarium fight (which karsa didn't really lose, since Mappo just knocked him out)?)

coughmalazanscough

that tattoo on his face was not a fashion statement he chose either


ByAAAaa!!!

edit: stupid missing / making me look like a jack ass

[Gothos]

I see I don't have to voice my point as my friends here have already stated when Karsa lost fights ;-)
well, add Urko.