[Gem Windcaster]

Hey, you're talking to someone that believes that Angels exist. Other worlds out there with intelligent creatures wouldn't surprise me at all. Also, they're probably pretty badass.

[Darkwatch]

I meant more in the sense that what theological consequences would there be?

(You may have already answered, if so just post the link to the post. Just that the last page or so was about... well it had nothing to do with extra-terrestrial metaphysical questions.)

[Gem Windcaster]

Theological consequences? Absolute none.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 11 October 2008 - 11:38 PM

[Cold Iron]

Hyperbole alert

[Gem Windcaster]

Dude, I don't even have to try to exaggerate.

[Darkwatch]

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 11 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Theological consequences? Absolute none.

It's good to know theologians have already made provisions for mortal extra-terrestial life in their interpretations.

[Gem Windcaster]

Darkwatch, on Oct 13 2008, 12:19 AM, said:

Gem Windcaster, on Oct 11 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Theological consequences? Absolute none.

It's good to know theologians have already made provisions for mortal extra-terrestial life in their interpretations.

Man, I don't even know where you guys get all these ideas from. Why would there be theological consequences with 'mortal extra terrestial life'? Dude, I don't even know what kind of consequences that would be. You guys are seriously funny sometimes. However, I cannot know what some random theo-dude thinks, I can only speak for myself.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 12 October 2008 - 11:46 PM

[Vicodin&FantasyBooks]

My personal opinion would be no, it wouldn't.

I don't care about the factuality of religious scripture. For me my religion is a world-view and a mind-set. I see it as a way to explain the inside world as in human interaction, artistic expression and not as a way to explain the universe.

Religion and culture for me set the mood in a way so I can persevere in the more trivial sides of life. I go back to them to relax just like I go back to reading books or drawing. They're the background upon which the rest of the world is revealed day in and day out.

And so I guess religion and science both work for me but on different levels.

[frookenhauer]

Religion and science may exist on different levels, but at some point they must meet (seeing as it is you in the middle...Science to the left of me, Jesus to my right! Here I am! stuck in the middle with you , and its at that point that things get tricky. Which argument is true/feels right? What does Reverend Godpower has to say? Is Professor Perfecthypothesis on the level? Like Gem always says its all down to personal opinion, but also on interpretation.

Which brings me nicely back to the bible and the fact that it is just a series of interpretations by various people on past...events (unverified). In many cases those interpretations are based on other peoples interpretations and so on and so forth. The new testament was written in most cases over 50 years after Jesus had been and gone. That's a long time for the story to grow. As far as I am concerned it is NOT the definitive guide to the history of Mankind, but I'm not discounting its importance in terms of its moral teachings or its importance to god fearing people everywhere...Amen.

ET will have little or no impact on the whole religion, er, thingy. "More of Gods handiwork! It is proof that god exists!" When you look at the universe through a belief filter it all makes sense

Hey Gem! Interesting post, w.r.t. the references, but I have a question: Isn't it part of Satans' job description to torture the sinners in hell?

[Gem Windcaster]

I thought I had killed this thread!

frookenhauer, on Oct 16 2008, 08:41 PM, said:

Hey Gem! Interesting post, w.r.t. the references, but I have a question: Isn't it part of Satans' job description to torture the sinners in hell?

I wouldn't know, but a theory that have been put forward (By Pastor David Wilkerson actually) is that maybe 'sinners' as you call them won't be as tortured as we would think - or anyway not in the way we imagine, or can imagine - but that they would, due to their choices, be more tortured of they instead were to be with God for eternity. Not to say that their lives will be pleasant at all, on the contrary - they will have complete knowledge of they have missed - but it won't be as simple as torture or no torture. Universe is not that simple to explain. For me it would be torture not to be with God, and I couldn't even imagine being away from Him. But since God actually gave us a free will, there's no reason he wouldn't go all the way with it. I think that also means that God will not look away from anyone that sincerely wants to be with him. God has already proved that he loves us to death, so I dare say he knows what he's doing.

Well, I haven't much answer for you, because for obvious reasons Hell is not something I contemplate alot on.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 18 October 2008 - 03:41 PM

[frookenhauer]

This thread will never die! In reality the question is what impact, amendment or even method of inclusion the church/mosque/synagogue/temple/POW will apply to it. The whole interpretation will depend on which school of thought the religious leaders want to apply. But that is my interpretation

How has God proved that he loves us to death? He swept away the entirety of mankind with a flood leaving behind the family of Moses. Now that's 'Tough Love', I mean really he is GOD (and all that implies), all he had to do is manifest himself in the sky and tell the people that unless they change their wicked ways, there will be 'Flood'! And the whole three plagues sent at Egypt was, lets face it, a little bit nasty. A simple "I'll just take my people away and place them in the land of milk tray and homous" would have sufficed. What is the point of having all that omnipotence if you are only going to use a fraction of it?

[Gem Windcaster]

Well, as long as you notice the good parts aswell, I don't mind you giving that arguments.

But it has nothing to do with tough love. No offense, but it's kinda hard for me to discuss these things, because they are issues that I worked through when I was 10 year old, or even younger.

For instance, the flood: people were expressively warned about it years ahead.
The plagues of Egypt: a whole people were held as slaves and abused - they couldn't leave - he had to be persuasive. You think he was cheating? I think it's simply badass. And he did try the nice asking thing first - you should read up on the story.

As for the omnipotence - there's a reason God don't just make us do his bidding - a tiny, important little thing called 'free will' - you should appreciate that. He uses people throughout the history to do his work - people that have his heart - which by he can work around the free will thingy. I'm simplifying, but you should get the point.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 19 October 2008 - 01:25 AM

[frookenhauer]

I do see your point of view, but I think you are missing mine. I should really have started a new thread called the misuse of omnipotence and the reason I say this is that there is a better way he could have chosen. If he had manifested himself in the sky and smote a few pyramids and told Egypt:

"LISTEN TO ME I AM THE ONLY GOD, YOU ARE IDLY WORSHIPING IDOLS. LET MY PEOPLE GO, AND IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SUBSCRIBE TO ME, MOSES WILL TAKE DOWN YOUR NAMES. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME."

This way he would have gained a few followers as well, everyone would have won. Sure beats the plagues and the deaths of the first born. And it would have been a better use of all that omnipotence. A similar sort of scenario would have been more appropriate instead of the flood. Did every living soul on the planet have to be swept away when you could have convinced them there was an alternative? I mean to those poor people who drowned after 48 days and 48 nights of rain, Moses was just some guy with a beard and a modest skill in carpentry who loved animals.

Also, Moses did not have a method of speaking to the whole world like we do today, so at most he might have managed a country or so in his cart over a period of a lifetime. The other people did not even get a look see.

The whole free will concept is important, but I'm not sure its applicable to the situations above because he is using Moses and Noah to spread the word and is therefore applying some form of pressure. Unfortunately these two guys just aren't enough to push the deal through. God knows this because he is omnipotent, he sends them anyway knowing they are going to fail, also knowing that the flood/plagues is/are going to happen.

Edit: And we are all waiting for your input on the other post "and here's one for all of you"

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 19 October 2008 - 03:01 AM

[Silencer]

Funny, Bent just brought up a point about God talking to non-believers over there as well.

Hmm...anything I post in regards to where this discussion has gone will probably be offensive/impossible to answer for most people...damn it...very interesting question I had to pose as well....but I won't go there.

[frookenhauer]

Whats the question?

[Gem Windcaster]

Yes, God knows what is going to happen. But free will is free will, dude. And you're missing crucial points.

You really think people would have listened if God did what you said he should? Don't you think the plagues are pretty much a big sign as you can get? Do you honestly think that even bigger manifestations would make it all better?!! The reason God has to work through people is because humanity don't listen - people stopped listening after the fall of man - it's the whole point!

The only way people would 'listen' or understand is when Gods shows himself in all his glory - but that would destroy people - it's the whole point of the sin thingy - that humans would be destroyed by the presence of God. That is also the whole point of what Christ did - to pay the price for humanity's sin and give us a way back to God - no destruction.

God had to 'remove' himself from humanity so he didn't destroy us. But he had a plan to bring us back - his own son - so that we could be sin free and stand in his presence again.

So you see I'm not missing your point, you're missing mine.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 19 October 2008 - 03:49 PM

[frookenhauer]

And I'm saying that the methods he chooses are the wrong ones, which is essentially what I'm driving at. He does not have to show himself in all his glory, just enough to make them realise that yes he is there and you really might want to consider your life choices. Since he is God he knows exactly how much pressure to apply, he knows that his original advocates are going to fail.

As for the plagues, the first plague can be casually passed off, the second is coincidence and finally they get it. Its funny how after a show of strength like that none of the Egyptians didn't start to pray to him. How are the plagues a better way to show himself than a honest to goodness manifestation? The same with the flood. Not good choices, not good at all.

As for removing himself from humanity, that is just plain weak, especially as these days, unless its in electronic format and verifiable: aint no-one going to believe you.

We are way off topic.

Aliens! Do they believe in God?

[Gem Windcaster]

No, they still don't get it, even after the manifestations. The Pharaohs army still came after the Isrealites into the Read Sea. Haven't you read the story? (me thinks you should read it again) It's my point - manifestations only goes as far as they go - people still make the choice not to listen/believe. I think your argument that he doesn't do all he can is ridiculous.

And he's not removing himself from humanity because he's weak, but because humanity is weak and gets destroyed by his presence. Man, you're slow today frookie, no offense.

And my point is that no manifestations, no matter how big they are, is going to make people believe/listen. And you keep forgetting God doesn't want us to worship him out of fear - he wants us to choose him. The only thing big manifestations would ever produce, if anything, would be fear and worshiping for the wrong reasons. The free will thingy.

God wants us to take responsibility for who and what we are, now that we have gained knowledge of good and evil. And we do that by making our own choices. Humanity made a choice - tough luck that we're such retards the bunch of us.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 19 October 2008 - 04:33 PM

[frookenhauer]

Yes I've read the story, in all its glory or lack thereof. In my opinion God did some really nasty stuff. stuff he could have prevented.

Your saying he sent the plagues, which is a form of coercion, which will affect free will, because all coercion affects free will, and because he is omnipotent he knew it would fail, yet he did it anyway. Free will? NO. Your argument has just bit dirt. Yum!

Yes the pharaoh just watched his kingdom rot and those dirty little bastards are going to get away with this? Don't blame the guy. In fact I'm now one of his fans. I'm British and we love the underdogs.

The argument for god removing himself is weak, how can omnipotence be weak...Duh!

By the way the only important part of this post is the free will and coercion bit.

It seems that all god does is human style angry things coupled with nature at his command, misuse of omnipotence alert! *sirens*

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 19 October 2008 - 05:00 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

I disagree on all accounts. For reasons already stated.