[Gem Windcaster]

Well, maybe the people writing it didn't think it was strange at all that people looked different, is all I am saying. They didn't mention the different colours of flowers or trees either, and those can be pretty marvelous. I simply don't think people thought in terms of races back then.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 09 October 2008 - 01:16 AM

[frookenhauer]

not even in the same league. If you were hanging off the edge of a cliff and you grasped those particular straws you'd now find out (or not) whether Jesus was waiting for you.

[Gem Windcaster]

Haha, how nice of you to visualize that for me.

Okay, so it was a bad comparison. But I'm sure you got the meaning of it. There's a lot that isn't mentioned. A lot.

[frookenhauer]

So what you're saying is the bible is not accurate? Casually omits important events? Or is it a case of lost chapters? A need to know basis?

I'm just saying that some of the timings of events don't stack up, and if that is the case, what else don't stack up, and if that's the case, isn't the case for god weakened somewhat purely for the fact that his book is weak.

[Gem Windcaster]

I'd say it says what needs to be said.

I have no idea why it omits things, but clearly, as history shows, there's a certain risk to writing down certain things - overanalyzing and exploiting believers can easily read too much into stuff. So even if God is perfect, humans are not, and God has to take that into account when he uses people to write his stuff down - both the fact that some things are hard to explain with the language that was back then, and the fact that people will read too much into it - or not read enough into it.

Well, that's my two cents. It probably isn't the whole story, but in the end it won't matter so much - God obviously did create people as people, and we don't know anything more about why he did that, than how.

[frookenhauer]

I'm afraid there is nothing obvious about it, but we will continue the debate on the morrow...Its late here in England

[Scifreak]

frookenhauer, on Oct 9 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

So what you're saying is the bible is not accurate? Casually omits important events? Or is it a case of lost chapters? A need to know basis?

I'm just saying that some of the timings of events don't stack up, and if that is the case, what else don't stack up, and if that's the case, isn't the case for god weakened somewhat purely for the fact that his book is weak.

of course the timings don't stack up. But trying to fit an empirical model onto a a collection of philosophical texts is never going to work it leads to such abhorrent nonsence like Creation Science

It just aint what the bible is for, really. It should never have been subjected to such literal interpretations by calvanist tards imo

[Gem Windcaster]

Scifreak, on Oct 9 2008, 03:53 AM, said:

of course the timings don't stack up. But trying to fit an empirical model onto a a collection of philosophical texts is never going to work it leads to such abhorrent nonsence like Creation Science

It just aint what the bible is for, really. It should never have been subjected to such literal interpretations by calvanist tards imo

Couldn't agree more.

[frookenhauer]

That just sounds like errant nonsense, designed purely to allow for the inconsistencies that reside in the bible. Philosophy is very exacting and ties well with mathematics so its not exactly a bright idea to state that a philosophical text does not need to add up.

[Gem Windcaster]

The way I see it, it's not really inconsistencies, just layers on layers. Besides, it's only inconsistencies if you think you've got the whole picture. The bible doesn't even pretend to give the whole picture. I think that's the main difference between you and me in this frook. Also, I think you'd find that those inconsistencies you talk about actually aren't inconsistencies, when analyzed. Hey, I wish my brother was around, he could tell you more about it.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 10 October 2008 - 02:01 AM

[frookenhauer]

missed ya gem! i'm beat and ready for bed, so tomorrow...

[frookenhauer]

If the bible is correct all mankind is a child of noah, or pretty damn close to him and his close kin. And anyway why wipe the slate clean? what had mankind done to deserve being drowned? And just how big was this boat? There are far too many different species to all have room on the tub. Why are we all not really badly inbred? The only way for a story like that to have remained intact was for it to have been written down (we all know what happens with chinese whispers) and the actual revelation of the torah, which constitutes the first five books of the old testament, apparently happened about 1200 BC by Moses. Prior to that there was no written record, so the whole flood and ark could be as real as well St George and the dragon and Camelot...

And another thing, those three wise men, they were about as unwise as you could possibly be. Listen Herod a baby will be born today that will be the king of kings, cheers fellas! Oi lads! kill all the newborns...NOW, I'm the king, not some Jewish kid.

[Gem Windcaster]

Ah, frook, that's a lot at the same time. Care to be more specific? Also, what are you trying to say/ask?

[Obdigore]

frookenhauer, on Oct 10 2008, 03:00 PM, said:

If the bible is correct all mankind is a child of noah, or pretty damn close to him and his close kin. And anyway why wipe the slate clean?

Because mankind had fallen into depridation and villany

Quote

what had mankind done to deserve being drowned?

same as above

Quote

And just how big was this boat? There are far too many different species to all have room on the tub.

it was figurative.

Quote

Why are we all not really badly inbred?

Because the genes had less degredation and were stronger then, being closer to gods 'form' - which can also be taken as meaning we have free will, unlike any other of gods creations.

Quote

The only way for a story like that to have remained intact was for it to have been written down (we all know what happens with chinese whispers) and the actual revelation of the torah, which constitutes the first five books of the old testament, apparently happened about 1200 BC by Moses. Prior to that there was no written record, so the whole flood and ark could be as real as well St George and the dragon and Camelot...

Unless you believe in a Pentultimate being who protected the story in the minds of every person who knew it for 1500 years.

Quote

And another thing, those three wise men, they were about as unwise as you could possibly be. Listen Herod a baby will be born today that will be the king of kings, cheers fellas! Oi lads! kill all the newborns...NOW, I'm the king, not some Jewish kid.

They were guided by Satan, which god turned to his favor.

This post has been edited by Obdigore: 10 October 2008 - 09:40 PM

[frookenhauer]

Sorry gem, that last one was a bit ambiguous, oops my bad. I think the whole noahs ark thing was a big fish, a real whopper, an exaggeration. And from there I am casting aspersions on the rest of the text. That's all. Do you know, I think I crossed over the 'friendly conversation' line. I blame brood, but its more likely to be Sci's fault. I'm going to have a religion discussion breather, unless you are okay with this line of conversation?

Very good Obdi, you have just reminded me what a 'belief filter' is. Cheers. Oh and very good use of the word penultimate.

This post has been edited by frookenhauer: 10 October 2008 - 09:42 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

Well frook, the problem is, I don't have any finished answers for you, more than maybe the correction of certain facts which are always up for interpretation. Christians, or at least the kind of Christian that I am, spend much time interpreting, reevaluating and rewriting so to speak their own faith. What to make of the bible is not set in stone, even though there's much that is part of the Christian tradition, that kinda comes with the territory. That's why I have a hard time answering that kind of question you asked, because an actual answer would have to spread over so many different areas that it fast becomes either partial or descriptive.

However, your question about genetics is an interesting one, and something I would like to figure out aswell. The way I see it is that the genetics indeed were stronger back then, also people lived longer, which would be another symptom of the same mechanics. Obdi describes it as 'being closer to Gods form', which is kinda the way I see it too. Remember that the first people was supposed to father an entire race of creatures, so the genes would have to be stronger/more clean (or however a geneticist would describe it).

It is kinda funny, when relating this theory of life to the evolution, because the bible describes it as if the human race, starting from the fall of man, continually is degenerating in every way. Theoretically because the very thing that keeps us alive is being close to God, and being away from God would lead to the opposite (for instance, that is why we die in the first place). Sin in this context is not so much about what someone does as it is a symptom of being away from God, or actually being away from God. It's a bit more complex than that, but essentially that's it.

This is me just speculating, but according to this theory then, if one runs the whole yard so to speak, the human race was both healthier and more accomplished in every area back in the days. It is even mentioned that humans mixed with the Angels themselves. Possibly humans could do much more than we could ever dream of - which would make Simson's strength for example something that he carried in his genes. Or not - maybe God just gave it to him. Heh.

Hehe, now I'm just running wild with ideas...

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 10 October 2008 - 10:19 PM

[frookenhauer]

Hey its all about belief and you got it by the tonne!. If we just put this line of conversation to the side for one moment and go back to an earlier question, I asked you what you felt when you were praying and we never got round to finishing it because all hell broke loose (sort of) it was very interesting.

I'm fairly certain in creation mankind is a completely separate creature from angels and we are from clay and this was one of the reasons why satan refused to bow to adam. Its funny satan was merely an angel, yet when he refused to bow to adam he became the devil and the ruler of hell and able to influence mankind and in a way very powerful. Is this not odd? And its not really a very good moral lesson for people: If you do not listen to god you will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine. thoughts?

[Gem Windcaster]

frookenhauer, on Oct 11 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

Hey its all about belief and you got it by the tonne!. If we just put this line of conversation to the side for one moment and go back to an earlier question, I asked you what you felt when you were praying and we never got round to finishing it because all hell broke loose (sort of) it was very interesting.

Prayer is different at different times. But at best, I feel this warmth that kind of 'glows' inside me, and I feel clean and perfectly aware of everything. Sometimes I just feel an incredible presence, which just break me down into tears, because it's so wonderful. What I feel other times, I couldn't even describe to you, because it's pertains to personal changes in my perception or my thoughts or just the way I feel - it's impossible to share with someone that haven't experienced it.

Hey, thank you asking - sometimes I forget how wonderful those experiences are, and how lucky I am, human as I am.

frookenhauer, on Oct 11 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

I'm fairly certain in creation mankind is a completely separate creature from angels and we are from clay and this was one of the reasons why satan refused to bow to adam. Its funny satan was merely an angel, yet when he refused to bow to adam he became the devil and the ruler of hell and able to influence mankind and in a way very powerful. Is this not odd? And its not really a very good moral lesson for people: If you do not listen to god you will become more powerful than you could possibly imagine. thoughts?

That's actually completely wrong. The enemy, as we Christians call him, has got nothing but lies and illusion. Being a child of God gives me access to the very power that made the universe. And with the inevitable victory of Christ, I'm practically invincible. (thihi)

Look up and read John 17, it explains a lot. John 17:20-23:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
To me that reads as I am practically a Goddess already by being close to God. j/k! But it's on the right track - just look at what romans 8 says:

Romans 8:28-39: (check out the underlined passage )
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 11 October 2008 - 02:38 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

On that note, I've got more information for you: http://davidwilkerso...y.blogspot.com/
(Read the 'resist and he will flee' blog.) It explains it better than I ever could - and I agree with that to a 100%.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 11 October 2008 - 02:47 PM

[Darkwatch]

So then what about the aliens? Or more specifically Extra-Terrestrial life, since Alien life could well exist on Earth, anyway.

This post has been edited by Darkwatch: 11 October 2008 - 09:54 PM