[tharinock]

maybe this hints that the Laseen that we see is not the original Surly. Maybe she is an impersonator/assassin?

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Dolorous Menhir;234511 said:

Baudin's comments on the Talon suggest that few remain, and like him they are second generation Talon born into the organisation. He certainly did not give the impression there was still a functioning leadership, which the appearance of Hawl in HoC did.

Baudin wasn't a legitimate Talon at all really - he had the training from his father, and the signs, but he doesn't seem to have been a member in Dancer's time and he doesn't seem to have been involved in any Talon-Claw intrigues beyond what he had to do to survive.

To be honest, I believe that the majority of the "real" Talon members have aged significantly. It is mentioned in RG that Throatslitter (though I often confuse his storyline with Deadsmell) was raised by Talons, and considers himself to be a Talon.

[Fiddler]

Which book was it in that Dogslayers get eaten by the ghosts of Raraku? Ah yes, House of Chains, one passage

The five were moving at seven paces apart, two paces more than would a Claw. Damn, did Cotillion suspect? Is this what he wanted me to confirm?
These are Talons.

That's from Kalam's POV, I'd think the cartoon ninja bear would know the difference, but then Cotillion confirms it when he sees Hawl's body.

"Hawl," he replied after a moment, 'I'd thought Surly had taken them all out. None of the Talon's command left. I thought she was dead.'

Later Cotillion is talking to Shadowthrone and says.

Ammanas was silent for a moment, then he asked, "Will you pursue this?"
'I see little choice. The Talon is up to something. We need to stop them-'

So a command member of the Talons was alive up until HoC, as well as a hand of them (or would it be paw?) After a thorough cleansing by Laseen and the Claw I could only see maybe another command member and a few dozen hands being alive, but who knows.

[tharinock]

nice catch. the talon definitely could be out there in large numbers (although the large numbers is unlikely). The Talon could be a gigantic organization still, and all it would need would be a couple high mages with insane mockra skills...

[Mentalist]

Well, Dom attempted to rally the Talon around himself, but I got the impession that these weren't the original, Dancer's Talons in majority of cases, these were just assasins with Claw-type training (since the Claw was modelled after the Talons).
I'm pretty sure that if the Talon command structure was smart enough to survive, someone up there would have been connected enough to know what most everyone else in power knows that--that Dancer & Kellanved ascended. If that was the case, I'd think they would try to re-establish connections to their former commander and creator and try to get his patronage.
Since we haven't seen anythin like that, it leads me to conclude that the talons are isolated and their main objective is survival--like Throatslitter or Baudin.

[Fiddler]

kud13;235603 said:

I'm pretty sure that if the Talon command structure was smart enough to survive, someone up there would have been connected enough to know what most everyone else in power knows that--that Dancer & Kellanved ascended. If that was the case, I'd think they would try to re-establish connections to their former commander and creator and try to get his patronage.

The Talons and the empire as a whole have been without support of any god or ascendant, they might very well have viewed the ascension of Kellanved and Dancer as another betrayal, we know that Dancer did nothing to save or help any of his original Talons. So why would they want to go back under his yoke again? Let's not forget that these same mystery commander(s) of the claw could make mistakes too, like backing the wrong horse (Korbolo Dom) although if you think about it, he wasn't such a bad choice. He's in Malaz City at the end of BH, Ranking High Fist, and sits at the Empress side. Other than Korbolo Dom being a cruel bastard, where's the down side here?

[Mentalist]

???
which mystery commanders are you referring to?

[Aptorian]

kud13;235678 said:

???
which mystery commanders are you referring to?

I think he's referring to the supposed new threat within Laseens powerstructure. In BH and RG it's implied that the empress no longer (fully) controls the Claw and that she's trapped in the same ploy that she once orchestrated against Kellanved and Dancer.

Dom or Rel have usurped her control. Personally, my guess would be that the ones that are eating away her power base, are in fact the Talon. She's been infiltrated.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I believe he is referring to the confusion surrounding who is giving out day-to-day orders for the claw in Topper's absence. Yes, Surly used to command them, but it certainly seems that at least in the Malaz City contingent of Claws, the Black Glove (or whatever Mallick Rel's ridiculous shadow organization is called) seems to hold the majority.

While Pearl may have traveled to Unta to speak to the Empress immediately after leaving 7C, it is clear by Laseen's conversation with him at the end of BH that he was not, at that point, the acting commander of the claw. Which makes me wonder how he ended up in Malaz City talking to Banaschar before the Empress had arrived; did she explicitly send him there to sniff out what Tayschrenn was up to? We have to wonder what exactly Laseen's relationship is with her High Mage.

Which of course calls to mind precisely how smart the Empress is. She was clever enough to predict the Pannion Domin's threat and falsely denounce Dujek to get the job done (though I wonder how she felt about Toc being the only Claw who could survive in the host...and he was but a messenger...) yet she does not see the greater threat developing right at her side with Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel?

Gah. There is too much at play here. I cannot wait to read ICE's new novel (since we'll be looking at Genebackis in Toll the Hounds, I wonder how much can be revealed of the Empress' current state of affairs.)

[Skywalker]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;235695 said:

(snip) We have to wonder what exactly Laseen's relationship is with her High Mage.

Which of course calls to mind precisely how smart the Empress is. She was clever enough to predict the Pannion Domin's threat and falsely denounce Dujek to get the job done (though I wonder how she felt about Toc being the only Claw who could survive in the host...and he was but a messenger...) yet she does not see the greater threat developing right at her side with Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel?

Gah. There is too much at play here. I cannot wait to read ICE's new novel (since we'll be looking at Genebackis in Toll the Hounds, I wonder how much can be revealed of the Empress' current state of affairs.)

A couple of things...

1) The plan to face the Pannion Domin was likely one designed by Dujek, and rubberstamped by Lasseen. I think it wasn't her plan - she only listened to what her High Fist suggested.

2) Lasseen's relationship with Tayschrenn is made clear in NoK - have you read that?

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

sky_walker;235708 said:

A couple of things...

1) The plan to face the Pannion Domin was likely one designed by Dujek, and rubberstamped by Lasseen. I think it wasn't her plan - she only listened to what her High Fist suggested.

2) Lasseen's relationship with Tayschrenn is made clear in NoK - have you read that?

Bah. I have NoK but it's a recent acquisition and I am in the middle of finals here - I can't wait to read it.

[Urko]

hmmm.. not sure if i remember correctly its been awhile since i read HoC but as kalam is sneaking around the dogslayers camp does he not stumble onto a few Talons, who have been sent on a mission by korbolo Dom to kill the whirlwind goddess??? i think i will need a quick reread. but if it was Talons?? are they unders Doms control

[Coco with marshmallows]

sky_walker;235708 said:

A couple of things...

1) The plan to face the Pannion Domin was likely one designed by Dujek, and rubberstamped by Lasseen. I think it wasn't her plan - she only listened to what her High Fist suggested.

maybe, but, as Dujek said to Coltaine - never underestimate the empress....

[BridgeBurner]

Apart from what others pointed out about most Claw being done for by none other than Kalam and Apsalar (who are both superior assassins) I'd like to point out another factor.

Apparently, from the start the Claw has been using the same tactic and have become to rely heavily on its successes in the past. I'm meaning the use of Hands of the Claw here.

Because of them relying on that, and of the fact that both Kalam and Apsalar were alone and very much aware of where any Claw would be, they became vulnerable. Because the Claw relied on the same deployment (and probably were drilled to do so) and them not being top notch like Kalam, Topper, Apsalar and even Pearl, they lacked the capability to adapt.

[Mentalist]

Pearl was placed in charge due tot he fact that he was the highes ranking Claw after Topper's dissapearance (In DG, Lasseen refers to Pearl as being Topper's "Favourite")
Rel's Phantom Glove, for all we know might be nearly eliminated--in fact, Lasseen might have brough ONLY Phantom Glove claws with her on MAlaz Island to set them up and get rid of them in the upcoming convergence..
Maybe I'm being unreasonable, but I don't really see the Talons being the threat. sure, Dom managed to round up some of them, instill personal loyalty to him and use them. But I think that he only got his hands onthe individuals--not an organization as a whole....

EDIT: as for the hidden threat of RotCG, i'd like to see Topper come back and play a major role...

[Skywalker]

kud13;235904 said:

EDIT: as for the hidden threat of RotCG, i'd like to see Topper come back and play a major role...

Oh yeah... Topper the polite Clawmaster would be a welcome return to the series. He's had precious few appearances in the series - as a messenger mostly. In GoTM he met Paran, in DG he talked to the Empress and set the Claw on Kalam, and in HoC he carried news of Whiskeyjack's death to Tavore... which was the last time we saw him - stepping back into the imperial warren.

[Mentalist]

supposedly, he's alos not much of an assasin, as he used his position to gain luxuries and might have gotten soft...
All of these things, combined with his experienc in the ranks would make him a perfect candidate from the Old Hands--someone who'll be compliant and not too strong-willed...

[Lancelot]

Sorry people!!

But i dont think you become a clawmaster without being a BAD MUTHA FUCKER!!

And didnt he take out the whole Untan royal line???......And wasnt that during Kelanved's time? so he must of had some balls to make it under Dancer.....

[Mentalist]

Im not saying that he WASN'T awesome.... i'm just not so sure that he still is..

Of course, he coulda faked the whole being a hedonist thing to lull Lassen... Him going under at the tha same time as Phantom glove comes into being and all.. I mean, that mshould mean something

Essentially, all I'm saying is, he better be back!