[Zanth13]

The Tyrant Lizard;211841 said:

I may be stating the obvious then, but it seems to me that the orginisation of the Claw is the Malazan version of the Gestapo. They operated outside the military structure, and I believe a rankless member could have arrested a high ranking officer of the army if they wanted to.

I think your about right.... Though if the claw are not to careful they get knifed in the back, like what happened in Dujeks army.

Claw are the spies, assassins, and private enforcers of the empress, so pretty much imune to other chain of commands.

[Aptorian]

I agree that the claw are spies and assassins, they're not normally seen or known about, Kalam and Toc were the obvious exceptions.

Pearl was probabaly a good exsample of how the claw work covert and in disguise.

[Abyss]

Although by TB, everyone in the 14th knew exactly who and what Pearl was. And as we've seen in NoK, the Claw aren't always about skulking in shadows. Sometimes they are very direct about who they are and what they do.

TTLizard's point about the SS isn't off base re a certain element of what they do.

- Abyss, thinks 'skulking' should be an olympic event.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think "Gestapo" is too strong for the Claw.

Secret police? Sure. The ruler's private army? Of course. But Gestapo is just too extreme a description.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Dolorous Menhir;211938 said:

I think "Gestapo" is too strong for the Claw.

Secret police? Sure. The ruler's private army? Of course. But Gestapo is just too extreme a description.

unless you call lasseen hitler

i know...extreme....just joking

[Cougar]

Just to come back to Called by the Voices and Xanth13's discussion about NCOs and commissioned officers. I think it was implied by what Xanth13 said but it's worth pointing out that the 'commission' generally in the British system (and other 18th to 19th) could be bought or awarded to outstanding soldiers. Also comissioned officers had to billet and eat in different quarters and pay for various things which efectively excluded poor people from attaining rank above Sgt. and making the officer class the exclusive preserve of the gentleman.

The commision as such is physically a letter or scroll from the monarch (or head of state) which invests the holder with authority (consequently it could be argued that only a commissioned officer actually commands, due to his mandate from the sovereign or head of state, NCOs simply exercise a degree of authority, although in modern armies the distinction is esentially a moot point). In the Malazan case you can imagine that the commision could only be attained by going to officer school, which was only available at some expense.

This is (seemingly) in direct oposition to the Old Guard/Family memebers who under Kallenved were promoted on merit/skills, remember Surly was a serving wench, apparently prior to being leader of the Claw, and most of the other characters we have met, Crust (keeper), Daseem, Gesler, Stormy,Whiskeyjack, Dujeck etc hardly seem of a noble disposition.

[Zanth13]

Cougar;211981 said:

Just to come back to Called by the Voices and Xanth13's discussion about NCOs and commissioned officers. I think it was implied by what Xanth13 said but it's worth pointing out that the 'commission' generally in the British system (and other 18th to 19th) could be bought or awarded to outstanding soldiers. Also comissioned officers had to billet and eat in different quarters and pay for various things which efectively excluded poor people from attaining rank above Sgt. and making the officer class the exclusive preserve of the gentleman.

The commision as such is physically a letter or scroll from the monarch (or head of state) which invests the holder with authority (consequently it could be argued that only a commissioned officer actually commands, due to his mandate from the sovereign or head of state, NCOs simply exercise a degree of authority, although in modern armies the distinction is esentially a moot point). In the Malazan case you can imagine that the commision could only be attained by going to officer school, which was only available at some expense.

This is (seemingly) in direct oposition to the Old Guard/Family memebers who under Kallenved were promoted on merit/skills, remember Surly was a serving wench, apparently prior to being leader of the Claw, and most of the other characters we have met, Crust (keeper), Daseem, Gesler, Stormy,Whiskeyjack, Dujeck etc hardly seem of a noble disposition.

Very true, that is why Officers are looked at with such contempt by malazan enlisted, they get there rank because they have money.
Though I’m sure they mentioned something about doing away with that method, but im not sure. I remember Paran talking about how easy his school was, something about winks and nods from instructors.

Very true about the commission, in the U.S it comes from the president, and my fellow NCO's cant actually hold "command" per say, but still have a large degree of authority, especially in the absence of orders, or officers.

Battle field commission is what I believe you were talking about when you said awarding a commission to an outstanding soldier. In the real world it was done in WW1 and WW2 that I know off, doesn’t happen now days though... at least not that I have heard about.
Audie Murphy is the most notable person to recieve a Battle field commission that i know of.

[Skywalker]

Cougar;211981 said:

In the Malazan case you can imagine that the commision could only be attained by going to officer school, which was only available at some expense.

This is (seemingly) in direct oposition to the Old Guard/Family memebers who under Kallenved were promoted on merit/skills, remember Surly was a serving wench, apparently prior to being leader of the Claw, and most of the other characters we have met, Crust (keeper), Daseem, Gesler, Stormy,Whiskeyjack, Dujeck etc hardly seem of a noble disposition.

Actually, as we find out in DG, this was one of the reasons Laseen carried out the cull of the nobility that sent Heboric, Baudin, and Felisin into the Otataral mines.

Also, an important thing to remember is that Laseen inverted/ flipped the line of command in the aftermath of Kellanved and Dancer's disappearance. This was done so she could stop worrying about the 'celebrity' soldiers that may threaten her throne.

EDIT: Gee, my hundredth post!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Quite right Cougar - advancement by merit was the clear policy of Dassem Ultor's armies. I think it is only since his "death" that the Malazan military has slipped into the bad practices of selling high ranks to nobles.

[Zanth13]

sky_walker;211984 said:

Actually, as we find out in DG, this was one of the reasons Laseen carried out the cull of the nobility that sent Heboric, Baudin, and Felisin into the Otataral mines.

Also, an important thing to remember is that Laseen inverted/ flipped the line of command in the aftermath of Kellanved and Dancer's disappearance. This was done so she could stop worrying about the 'celebrity' soldiers that may threaten her throne.

EDIT: Gee, my hundredth post!

Also I think it was mentioned this was done because A. she wasn’t sure of the loyalty some of the people who had been with Kelevend from the beginning. and
B. I think it mentioned somewhere she wanted her best leaders to be at ground level, because she expected the big war coming up and loss of communication so she needed the best leaders on the ground with the soldiers... to make sure shit gets run properly. So she put them at positiones were the would be more effective in the upcomming conflicts, ie SGT positions and what not.

[Abyss]

xanth13;212009 said:

...I think it mentioned somewhere she wanted her best leaders to be at ground level, because she expected the big war coming up and loss of communication so she needed the best leaders on the ground with the soldiers... to make sure shit gets run properly. So she put them at positiones were the would be more effective in the upcomming conflicts, ie SGT positions and what not.

I've pimped this theory before. It runs from hints in MoI, mstly from Dujek and WJ chatting, to the suggestion that the Malaz empire knew something huge was coming, presumably the conflict with the CG, so they inverted the command structure to put people like WJ where they could do the most good. The plan got screwed, however, by other agendas interfering, and likely due to Laseen's paranoia as well.

- Abyss, big pimpin'.

[Farky]

Don't have much time so I skipped over a bit, but wasn't part of Dassem's role as First Sword to be a champion of the Malazan armies?

He had a bodyguard with him in battle, his "Sword", who's job was to keep the other army's peons, away from him, while he killed the other side's champion. It seemed to me that he was still Commander in Chief of their armies, but he generally left the battles to his (High) Fists.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sure, he was a champion. But it's also been made clear that he was the top commander too. He led the armies, he set military policy (for example the imposition of merit as the basis for advancement) and he commanded campaigns.

The Malazan military was designed and created by Dassem Ultor - he wasn't just some guy who was good with a sword.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

Abyss;212010 said:

I've pimped this theory before. It runs from hints in MoI, mstly from Dujek and WJ chatting, to the suggestion that the Malaz empire knew something huge was coming, presumably the conflict with the CG, so they inverted the command structure to put people like WJ where they could do the most good. The plan got screwed, however, by other agendas interfering, and likely due to Laseen's paranoia as well.

- Abyss, big pimpin'.

Yeah, ofc, I think this was mentioned in one of the SE interviews. The purpose was to keep the highly talented officer away from harm, as the Empire obviously knew something big is gonna hit them.

I'm not sure whether the plan failed, though. WJ died, yes, but Laseen perseverd great minds like Urko and Cartheron Crust, Dassem Ultor,Toc the Elder, Dujek Onearm, etc....

[Lisheo]

Toc the Elder is a servant of Hood, which is probably more likely the reason for his survival. Wherever he is.
Onearm is also dead.
Dassem was betrayed by her, altho I havent got my hands on a copy of NoK yet, so Im just going by whats been said in the MboF. Now hes a free agent.
Ok, the Crusts rock, Ill admit.

[Zanth13]

Yes I think the empire lost allot of leaders it didnt intend to.
Do you really think all the 'missing' character and leaders will come back and help the empire, suck as Urko, Toc the Elder ect ect.

I find it unlikely, I think Lessen burned to many bridges (forgive the pun)