[Zanth13]

cerveza_fiesta;211718 said:

I wondered that about the high mage. I thought it marked a certain level of power rather than some kind of achieved rank or appointment to a power position.

This is because they talk about Sinn in RG being a high-mage, even though she isn't by title. Also, when QB meets up with Tayschrenn in (help me out here), Tay disses QB and says that he's a high mage by name only (or something to that effect).

But then QB seems to go against that, because he's an immensely powerful mage with access to a bunch of warrens, but is only a cadre mage early in the series, until Dujek (I think) makes him high mage.

Well I said mages were seperated by Power level, so i think we agree on that?
High Mages are hella powerfull, and have that title/rank because of it not the other way around.

Well I think it was Mallick rel who said Quick didnt have the power, and he is a retard, who underestimates Ben. Quick Ben was hidding out early in the series, being sneaky and not wanting anyone to know his true power, they couldnt hide him forever, and needed to be more then just a squad mage, so they put him at his rank he deserved of High Mage.

[Called-by-the-Voices]

xanth13;211717 said:

Well in the Malazan world the difference is minimal I imagine. Early books mentioned officer schools, IE Paran went to one. Normally this is the only way to get commissioned, and you would start your military career as an officer usually a lieutenant, then you get promoted to Captain ect.

Other soldiers 'enlist' and come into the military with no rank pretty much, such as Hedge, but by proving themselves they can get promoted to Corporeal, and Sergeant, like Fiddler and Kalam have done (master sergeant also maybe in the malaz world)
A corporeal and sergeant would be in charge of a group of soldiers, but they are not commissioned, so they are termed Non-commissioned Officers, and are always outranked by there commissioned counterparts.

I think It was mentioned that such officer schools in the malaz world were done away with, or starting to be done away with, so it looks like Officer promotions, or looking more merit based, IE someone can go from Sergeant to Captain now if they are a hard ass, it looks like (though not conrfirmed to happen often.)

Officers get saluted such as Lieutenants, captains, fist ect
enlisted don't which includes corporeal, sergeants,and normal soldiers.

So, basically, the difference is whether someone is progressing "on merit" (like Fiddler, Kalam) or after finishing some Officer school... That makes sense... Just to make it clear- the NCO start as corporals, then sergeants, whilst CO start as Lieutenants, then progress to captains.... Majors? (I'm following BSG logic here )

Anyway, thank you, that really helped. Have rep.

[Abyss]

At one point, mages and healers had cadres and separate units, but by the time we join the story, it seems that practice is gone and squad mage or squad healer is just a position as opposed to a rank.

Storm's rank of 'Adjutant' was probably a Greymane or Dassem inovation that was removed after the commander in question died/vanished/retired.

- Abyss, adjacent.

[Zanth13]

Quote

So, basically, the difference is whether someone is progressing "on merit" (like Fiddler, Kalam) or after finishing some Officer school... That makes sense... Just to make it clear- the NCO start as corporals, then sergeants, whilst CO start as Lieutenants, then progress to captains.... Majors? (I'm following BSG logic here )

You got it, and no prob.
though I will point out that when Lassem took over, officers were getting demoted to lesser ranks, as we see with whiskyjack, Stormy, Gesler ect ect.

The officer thing is one of the conflicts that I saw the soldiers experiencing in the books, such as LT Ranall, he was in charge not because of merit, or length of service, but because he graduated an officer school, and came in as a LT, and pretty much sucked it up... until he got um ... Ranalled...

- there are many jokes made about new officers in todays armies, but I of course would never partake in making fun of, over paid, slow, conceited, stupid people with to much power.... ever.

[The Tyrant Lizard]

Speaking of ranks and the like, I seem to remember Kalam arguing with a sergeant at one point, and the sergeant (I think it was either Balm or Cord, though I could be wrong) tried to pull rank on Kalam, but he basically said 'I'm a Bridgeburner, and that means I outrank you.'

I wonder if that means that members of elite units have more clout than members of regular ones.

[Dancer+]

His authority was that he was once a leader of the claw, only second to topper I believe. Plus the fact that he was a corporal in the bridgeburners.
I may be wrong as I've read this part so few times.

[cerveza_fiesta]

The Tyrant Lizard;211735 said:

Speaking of ranks and the like, I seem to remember Kalam arguing with a sergeant at one point, and the sergeant (I think it was either Balm or Cord, though I could be wrong) tried to pull rank on Kalam, but he basically said 'I'm a Bridgeburner, and that means I outrank you.'

I wonder if that means that members of elite units have more clout than members of regular ones.

I think has a lot more to do with everybody knowing how ridiculously badass Kalam is, and that they better not get in his way or he'll just friggin kill them. I mean, the guy can get stabbed 100 times and stop himself from bleeding and make himself cold so the heat-sensing mages can't detect him. Btw, I loved that part where Kalam puts the smack down on the guy trying to pull rank.

[Nightmare]

It could just be that the sergeant was slightly afraid of Kalam. In the real world, would a corporal in the SAS be able to tell a sergeant of a standard infantry unit what to do? As far as the legalities of such a thing go, I don't think he would, but as far as the practicalitites of it, he probably could.
People are usually enlisted into elite regiments because they are superior to other men/women, and thus, should be heard.

[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta;211742 said:

I think has a lot more to do with everybody knowing how ridiculously badass Kalam is, and that they better not get in his way or he'll just friggin kill them. I mean, the guy can get stabbed 100 times and stop himself from bleeding and make himself cold so the heat-sensing mages can't detect him. Btw, I loved that part where Kalam puts the smack down on the guy trying to pull rank.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think Kalams Claw past was that much of a secret... the claw rank probably overrules everything, unless you're a tough SOB like kindly or Stormy.

EDIT: Didn't see Cults above post.

[Zanth13]

mmm yeah Kalam pulling rank was probably based on his claw past...

though being a bridgeburner (pretty much special forces) probably helped not to mention I dont think that sergeant really gave a rats ass, because he couldnt do anything to help there situation.

Kalam had more experience so the sergeant gave him command.

[Abyss]

Iirc, Kalam was pulling rank ONLY on the basis of being a Claw, but the Ashok Reg. sgt aceeded to him because he was a Bridgeburner and a legendary one at that.

I can't remember whether Kalam said 'Claw', 'Clawmaster' or anything more explicit.

- Abyss, also figures Kalam could have just given the sarge a bad wedgie.

[Dancer+]

I think Kalam used the word 'Clawmaster' but my mind often tries to tell me things have happened that haven't so don't take my word as concrete :angel:

[Witan]

I think there is a certain amount of looseness with regard to rank. When Paran is discussing taking command with the outrider he agrees to take his Captain rank with seniority and therefore command. This lets one do away with a number of in-between ranks.

For instance Fid may be a sergeant but he has seniority over pretty much every other Sergeant so I would think in modern parlance he is a First Sergeant. But within the book if you are a Sergeant and Fid tells you to jump, you jump.

I think once one surpasses Captain the naming conventions change to signify a political change.

From a political point of view a Captain and a Corporeal are just soldiers as far as the Empire is concerned but a Fist is a poli-military position

Poli-Military Positions in Ascending rank

Sub Fist/High Mage
Fist
High Fist/Admiral/Clawmaster/Imperial High Mage
First Sword
Empress

I haven't included the adjunct because that position isn't really the Empress' assistant its the Empresses hand so if the Empress isn't in the room the Adjunct speaks with the Empresses voice. So the Adjunct can command anyone but the Empress unless the Empress is in the room.

Because they are political ranks they fluctuate so someone like Topper or Tayschrenn can accumulate power beyond the simple rank they have.

High Fist/Admiral/Clawmaster/Imperial High Mage are all the same imo, because an Admiral is just High Fist of the sea, Clawmaster is High Fist of the Claw etcetera.

Bridgeburners as well have a special rank. Not just as elites but they have legendary status. And everyone knows that Bridgeburners will gladly kill a higher ranking officer and Dujek will say nary a word.

I don't think mage is a rank I think it is a profession just like sapper.

Consider Bottle and Cuttle, Bottle is a squad mage because he is attached to a squad, so one might call Cuttle a squad sapper because he is attached to a squad.

If Cuttle was in a squad of sappers he would be the equivalent of a cadre sapper (a member of a group of sappers) since a cadre mage is really only a member of a group of mages.

I think over the years there have been lots of mage cadres that would all but destroyed and then the remaining members are absorbed by squads but there rank doesn't change.

I think High Mage is a rank but can also be an observation. Just like the Letherii referring to QB as a Ceda when that's not his official title. So Sinn is a High Mage in the sense that she has the power of a High Mage but not the rank at the same time one could be given the rank of High Mage without the power.

[Zanth13]

Well I wouldn’t say the empire views Captains and Corporals’ the same... Officers are always picked as targets, by the empire and by the empires enemies, and I’m sure they would risk a Corporal more than a Captain, but yes they are both soldiers, and share in the risks, but a Captain will be the one getting promoted to fist not the CPL.

That’s a good point about being semi political rank/station., which probably comes down to who ever has more favor with the empress has the most credibility/rank at that time... though they all have different areas of responsibility. Ill go ahead and say that officer ranks have allot more to do with politics, i.e. who ever is in favor gets promoted, for the most part, Dujek was good but not better then whisky and look who ended up where. and the enlisted have more to do with battle prowess, and leading abilities...

High mage is for sure a rank IMO, we have yet to see some one considered a highmage also be a fist, or anything like that. It’s yet to be seen if a squad mage such as bottle can be a sergeant or not.

[Imperial Historian]

Kalam pulled rank as 'a Claw, a Leader of a Hand. And as such I'm only outranked in the field by clawmaster topper, the adjunct and the Empress herself' (HoC, mmpb, p536)

And adjunct seems to be the position held by a commanders chief assistant and messenger, and as such orders from them are treated with the same weight as the commander, but only the empress seems to have used this in recent times (though i'd say gamet was in effect, if not name tavores adjunct in HoC, relaying her orders to the other fists)

And high mage would seem to be a rank, but also an assessment of power level, so someone could be considered to have as much power as a high mage, and be called a high mage, but you can only be appointed to be a high mage of the empire by the empress/tays.

[tjc52]

Somewhere in DHG, When Kalam shows his medallion to the sergeant and overrules him as a clawmaster, I think he says something along the lines of "Clawmaster, so I can only be overruled in the field by the commander of the Claw, the Adjunct, or the Empress herself."

This would seem to put the Claw outside of the usual chain of command.

[Tattooed Hand]

Dolorous Menhir;211542 said:

That's a good round-up.

As far as Captains are concerned, Faradan Sort would be a good guide. She seems to command a large number of Sergeant-level squads, but I'm at a loss to how the function she serves differs from how Lieutenant Ranal commanded roughly the same squads - especially since she seems to act without a Lieutenant under her.

Sort also seems to have no officer tier between her and the Fists. Correct?

Other ranks: Admiral, but we've had little exposure to the naval side of the military.

How mages fit in? They seem to form their own squads, which have their own equivalent of Sergeants - Cadre Leader, for example Tattersail in GotM. They seem to report directly to the High Mage or Fist, if the briefing before Pale in GotM is a good guide. Tattersail seemed to be entitled to give orders to Sergeants and lower soldiers, but that may have been a courtesy rather than a formal command structure.

And the High Mage? Tayschrenn seemed to have a great deal of authority over all military figures in GotM, rivalling High Fist Dujek. Perhaps that derives from his position as Imperial High Mage though, and other High Mages (such as Bellurdan) would have no particular control over normal military operations.

It also seems like Faradan Sort reports to a Fist, but there are three Fists (or were) in that army, all under the Adjunct, who is acting as a High Fist. So maybe the Fists in this scenario are the officer structure between Captains and the commander of the army.

It also seems that a person's authority seems to have alot to do with their personality and talents and that the Malazan command structure allows for this...

[Zanth13]

Quote

This would seem to put the Claw outside of the usual chain of command.

agreed ... though Kalam was a "clawmaster"
also the claw were used as an extent of the empress will, so in effect anything they said would come from her, or her goals or wishes. they are her private group... so that is why i believe that get so much 'authority'

telling a claw no would be like telling the empress no, not to mention probably get a knife put in your throat. it also seems the claw can kill anyone they want with impunity.

[Shuglin]

or... it could be because Kalam is technically a Marine

[The Tyrant Lizard]

I may be stating the obvious then, but it seems to me that the orginisation of the Claw is the Malazan version of the Gestapo. They operated outside the military structure, and I believe a rankless member could have arrested a high ranking officer of the army if they wanted to.