[Aptorian]

cerveza_fiesta;209614 said:

you missed my earlier idea about how his aspect *became* chaotic

In my earlier line of thinking:

His aspect was introduced when Rake et. al pulled him in and chained him to Burn's flesh. With its governing conscience so abruptly removed, his aspect (now ungoverned) became chaotic and unpredictable and "filled in the cracks" between the other warrens, and assaulted their orderly construction. There's no mention that I remember of chaos being associated with the elder holds in SE's numerous dealings and descriptions of the tiles (correct me please if I'm wrong there), so maybe there was no chaos aspect before the CG's fall. By the time the warrens were introduced, the CG's warren corrupted itself so badly that it became completely chaotic.

Just trying to make a half-plausible theory for the CG's origins. Its fantasy...crazy stuff happens sometimes ya know.

Meh... hmm.

My personal impression of Chaos is that it's not "bad".

Chaos is "what is not" it's what could be, possibility, the necessity of change. Coming back to... DMs? mention of Entropy, order comes out of Chaos but with out Chaos there's stagnation. Chaos is reneval.

Is The CG reneval? ... I guess he is. I still don't think he came out of Chaos. I look at chaos in the Malazan universe like outer space. It's that thing that lies between planets and between realms that aren't exactly planets. The CG came from beyond what's in between.

[lessthanpleased]

My reading was always that the Crippled God, as an alien god, represented a concept that simply didn't exist in the reality of Wu. Like a thought that can't be thought, or- in philosophy terms- something that short-circuits our view of reality (like something that both exists and doesn't exist, something that's P and ~P).

Because whatever it is that he embodied in wherever it is that he came from doesn't exist and can't exist in Wu, he became the essence of corruption because reality itself rebelled against his presence.

Wackiness ensued, Stephen Erikson books suddenly had a plot that demanded that they be written, thus came Malazan Book of the Fallen, etc.

[Lisheo]

Hmm thats an interesting theory. The reason he has no power of his own is because his is a power that simply cant exist in Wu, and so he taps chaos, yeah?

[Lisheo]

Correct me if Im wrong, but could Hairlock have been SE's way of explaining to us what the CG is? Hairlock was never admirable, but he died, was destroyed. Quick Ben forced his soul into a new body, and indeed chained him with those strings, in a way. Hairlock then started drawing from Chaos, because in his insane state, he considered it better than his original power, Rashan, or Meanas, or whatever. Maybe the CG wasnt an alien god, in the form we seem to think. I mean, Fener didnt live on Wu, did he? Thats pretty alien, like. As are the Tiste races, and the dragons, and KCCM, in fact, all races except the Eres. For all we know, the CG still can use his original power, but he considers Chaos a better way to accomplish his goals.

[Aptorian]

Lisheo;212594 said:

Correct me if Im wrong, but could Hairlock have been SE's way of explaining to us what the CG is? Hairlock was never admirable, but he died, was destroyed. Quick Ben forced his soul into a new body, and indeed chained him with those strings, in a way. Hairlock then started drawing from Chaos, because in his insane state, he considered it better than his original power, Rashan, or Meanas, or whatever. Maybe the CG wasnt an alien god, in the form we seem to think. I mean, Fener didnt live on Wu, did he? Thats pretty alien, like. As are the Tiste races, and the dragons, and KCCM, in fact, all races except the Eres. For all we know, the CG still can use his original power, but he considers Chaos a better way to accomplish his goals.

I like the Hairlock is a metaphor for the CG idea. The likeness is there. Have rep.

[thesalus]

Just something interesting I found as I was rereading MoI.

"At the chaining, there were but forty of us, yet we destroyed the Crippled God's entire realm - granted, a nascent realm." - Korlat to Rake ~pg.365

[Clip]

Well, the definition of nascent is "being born or beginning" so maybe what Korlat meant was that tCG had become powerful enough by that time after the Fall that he could create a realm of his own connected to all the others, similar to that island that we see him on now. But since it was before the chaining it was larger and more powerful than what he has now.

[lessthanpleased]

@ Lisheo:

Hairlock at a metaphor for the CG is pretty much what I'm going for. I like the idea of a human consciousness twisted and shaped by a container that simply cannot fit it a great deal, and that turning to chaos isn't something that was essential to Hairlock's nature but the natural response of a thing pushed beyond its limits.

It works really, really nicely as an analogy to the CG.

I do like the Crippled God being unable to use his old powers a great deal, though. He'd be like the incarnation of a squared circle on earth: an empty concept, but traces of its existence would wreak holy hell on normal thought. Kinda like poisoning Burn: I'm not sure that it's something that is a goal of the CG, his presence just kinda does it because his presence is anathema to Burn and Wu as a whole.

[Lisheo]

Hahah, proof he cant use his powers. In MoI, Crone mentions that the Great Ravens are guarding his powers. Its during the parley, I believe. So, maybe the Great Ravens, being created from the CG's old body, are the only ones able to visualise his true aspect?

[lessthanpleased]

Lisheo;213430 said:

Hahah, proof he cant use his powers. In MoI, Crone mentions that the Great Ravens are guarding his powers. Its during the parley, I believe. So, maybe the Great Ravens, being created from the CG's old body, are the only ones able to visualise his true aspect?

If that's the case, then it's kind of fitting that only overgrown maggots have any real clue as to what the Crippled God's true nature was before Wu.

[Cutter Nom]

who knows about the Ravens guarding CG's powers? does Rake? nvm if he did he'd kill them all, cuz hes cool like that. :cool:

[Gem Windcaster]

I believe Rake knows it, I think it was mentioned that he knows.

[Blend]

Gem Windcaster;213698 said:

I believe Rake knows it, I think it was mentioned that he knows.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's also mentioned that he keeps (kept) them on Moon's Spawn because he wanted to be able to keep an eye on them, in case they ended up taking a turn for the worse. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer type of thing.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Blend;213707 said:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's also mentioned that he keeps (kept) them on Moon's Spawn because he wanted to be able to keep an eye on them, in case they ended up taking a turn for the worse. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer type of thing.

I wonder if the crows are kind of the CGs finnest then. If they could be reunited with his flesh then they'd give power back to him.

[Blend]

cerveza_fiesta;213738 said:

I wonder if the crows are kind of the CGs finnest then. If they could be reunited with his flesh then they'd give power back to him.

That'd be a really interesting idea. As far as we know, that's more or less what they are. The crows carry the CG's power. And it would make sense for the CG to still have power - Raest was still pretty powerful without his Finnest, so I imagine he's pretty powerful with it - imagine the CG if all the crows were, what, reabsorbed into him? Yikes!!!!

PS - Have some rep!

[Elan Morin Tedronai]

Didn't Crone mention in GotM that the Ravens absorbed magic in some way? That attacking it with sorcery would only make it stronger and strenghten its immunity against it... would this make the CG even stronger than he already was if and when they would reunite with him? And make him immune to magic?

Or, as a crazy theory, what if the CG has kinda the same characteristic, and all of this is just an elaborate ploy to get as much magic in one big offensive blow against him, which would make him all-powerful, and instantly immune to everything anyone could throw at him at the same time

[cerveza_fiesta]

yep...there's lots of examples of wu objects / animals holding the power of people. Crows - coltaine and the shaman, butterfiles - sormo (cant remember that name very well), acorn - Raest, stone dagger - scabandari

Probably isn't unreasonable that the crows are CGs finnest somehow. It could also speak for his relationship to chaos. If the ravens have his power, then it could be an attunement to chaos that makes them so resistant to magical attacks.

[Gem Windcaster]

Very interesting cerveza. I like that idea. Simple and to the point.

[cerveza_fiesta]

Gem Windcaster;213782 said:

Very interesting cerveza. I like that idea. Simple and to the point.

cool I'm gonna new-thread that idea. people on here shed some pretty good light on stuff

[sphish]

In my current re-read of TBH, I note this passage...

Spoiler

For every abomination, there must emerge its answer. Its enemy, its counterbalance. Here, within this Eres'al, is such an answer. To a distant abomination, the corruption of a once-innocent spirit. Innocence must be reborn. Yet... I can see so little... not human, not even of this world, barring what the Eres'al herself brought to this union. Thus, an intruder. From another realm, a realm bereft of innocence. To make them part of this world, one of their kind must be born... in this way. Their blood must be drawn into this world's flow of blood.
But why an Eres'al? Because... gods below... because she is the last innocent creature, the last innocent ancestor of our line. After her... the degredation of spirit begins. The shifting of perspective, the separation from all else, the carving of borders - in the ground, in the mind's way of seeing. After her, there's only... us.
The realization - the recognition - was devastating. Bottle pulled his hand away. But it was too late. He knew too many things, now. The father... Tiste Edur. The child to come... the only pure candidate for a new Throne of Shadow - a throne commanding a healed realm.
And it would have so many enemies. So many...

The way I see it, this reads the CG as being the potential intruder, from another realm, bereft of his innocence, and the child within the Eres'al is the counterbalance, to heal and correct the mistakes that were caused by his fall. We all know that SE's written that Shadow was being sundered even before Scabandari Bloodeye spilled blood in Kurald Emurlahn, so this is quite possibly a lead into showing us the background and depth of the origins of what we're lead to believe is the main maligned character within the books.

It also lends credence to the possibility that Kallor is worse than we've been lead to believe, as it was his actions that led the mages to pull the CG down in the first place.