[dolfanuk]

so i understand that the andi and the liosan are both imortal barring accident or violent death. how come the edur aren't also immortal?

could it be due to their home warren being shattered, whilst the other two are still whole?

also the forkrul assail, do they have a warren or not?

[Aptorian]

The big question is whether the other tiste races really are immortal.

Rake's Andii all seemed immortal but did we see any Andii but the warrior mages? mages, live longer, andii mages might live for ever. I don't remember hearing details about the andii living in the moon.

Rake's children probably share his ascendant blood, keeping them safe from the years.

Darist grew old when he renounced his ascendant blood. But of course he was still half a million years old.

We don't know anything about the liosan culture besides the three we saw in HoC, we don't know their age.

[dolfanuk]

ah i see what you mean, so possibly the only ones who could be classed as maybe immortal are the mages and ascendants?

yeah true, the jhag and FA are defo immortal though right i mean i've not missed the boat on that one right?

[Aptorian]

I don't know if we're supposed to believe all the Andii and Liosan really are immortal. It could be that the Edur are mortal because they are halfbreeds between light and dark...

Jaghut and FA seem immortal, don't know about the Jhags though... Icarium is the only one we know of and he's a freak. There's also a Jhag mentioned who pressed Dassem in a swordfight, don't remember if he's one of Quicks souls.

[dolfanuk]

wow so quick ben may have a jhag soul in there? and ne that can press dassem in a sword fight????

that fella is full of surprises, top mage, soultaken, with jhag blood, and one of the best swordfighters alive, with more souls yet to discover

[Dolorous Menhir]

dolfanuk;203526 said:

so i understand that the andi and the liosan are both imortal barring accident or violent death. how come the edur aren't also immortal?

The Liosan and Andii appear to be immortal. The Edur have extremely long life-spans, but MT description led me to believe they do have finite lifetimes (though they may be in the tens of thousands of years).

The answer to why? The Andii and Liosan are "pure" races - light and dark. The Edur are a mixed-breed, inferior. As I've said before, this language of racial purity is distasteful, but it does seem to be the answer to this question. The Edur are considered the inferior race by the others, after all. Certainly by the Liosan, they are looked down upon.

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could it be due to their home warren being shattered, whilst the other two are still whole?

Maybe, but I don't think the status of Kurald Emurlahn determines Edur lifespans.

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also the forkrul assail, do they have a warren or not?

GotM, on UK Trade p.204, said:

The Warrens of the Imass are similar to those of the Jaghut and the Forkrul Assail – Elder-, blood- and earthbound

The words of Adjunct Lorn to Tool. Only known reference to Forkrul Assail magic. May be a GotMism. The two FA seen active in the story do not use magic (Calm, Serenity), but we can't draw any conclusion from only two members of a race. They may have been fighters rather than mages.

[wintermute]

Tiste Andii do not seem to be entirely immortal, Darist was aging pretty badly by the time of his death. Also, it seems the ones from all the elder races who are living a long time are insanely powerful, so while the elder races are probably just more long lived than humans, a half million year lifespan may be due more to power and proximity to ascension than racial characteristics.

[Cougar]

DM: I'm struggling to remember where (think it's the Liosan who get a grenade thrown at them) since I'm at work, but surely the Liosan says that they can stand the Edur beacuse at least they have some of the blood of father light (although it's clear from the tone they look down on them), where as the Andii are pure dark.

Darist is an exception as he had renouced his blood, whatever that means, so we can't use him as an example. I never got the impression that the Tiste were genuinely immortal just that they had very extended life spans.

Incidentally I love how Erikson has kept the Liosan a real mystery, throwing out tid-bits like the mention by Beak or Bottle?? about 'The Just Wars' between the Liosan and the Fokrul Assail. I bet he never explains this, just inserted it for depth.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Cougar;203602 said:

DM: I'm struggling to remember where (think it's the Liosan who get a grenade thrown at them) since I'm at work, but surely the Liosan says that they can stand the Edur beacuse at least they have some of the blood of father light (although it's clear from the tone they look down on them), where as the Andii are pure dark.

Sure, the Edur are part Liosan. That's what I mean by mixed blood. Shadow is a mix of Light and Dark. The Edur are a mix of Andii and Liosan. That's why the others don't like them very much.

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Darist is an exception as he had renouced his blood, whatever that means, so we can't use him as an example. I never got the impression that the Tiste were genuinely immortal just that they had very extended life spans.

Darist renounced his draconean blood. In other words, he gave up his status as a Soletaken Eleint, which he had acquired by "drinking the blood of Tiam". He was still a Tiste Andii. Remember that Rake has been described as more draconean than Tiste Andii. Andarist simply gave up the draconean part and went back to all-Andii.

Put it this way - Darist was the second oldest Tiste Andii. And he still hadn't died of old age. (Ok, ok, he's the direct issue of Mother Dark, he's not your average Andii. I still think it's a relevant point.)

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Incidentally I love how Erikson has kept the Liosan a real mystery, throwing out tid-bits like the mention by Beak or Bottle?? about 'The Just Wars' between the Liosan and the Fokrul Assail. I bet he never explains this, just inserted it for depth.

I think they're going to turn out to be major players. My pet theory is that they are (or will be) another of the groups infiltrated and controlled by the CG, in the same way as the Tiste Edur. Both are isolated races with big grudges against the rest of the world, a world they are very ignorant of.

[Obdigore]

@DM.

Perhaps the FA 'magic' is their ability to dodge, flow, fight. Much like, imo, Kalam's is.

Plus... calm (serenty?) lays out almost trueblood TTT with one blow, I assume they are not as large as TTT, so could they have some magic that enhances strength/speed/agility?

[Illuyankas]

Hmm. One of the K'risnan in MT mentioned that Serenity pushed back the mage's magic when he tried to blast the FA, during that fight. Wasn't that part of the evidence used in the 'TTT might have some FA blood' theory?

[Cougar]

I'd like to see more of Osserc/Osric, he's bound to have an interesting back story. Although he does seem a little naive from what small part we know of him.

It's a nice theory DM but I reckon (for no reason other than their incredible arogance and attitude to other races) that the Liosan won't turn out to be in league with anyone. They seem to regard only themselves as worthy etc and I suspect they wouldn't be adverse to a spot of ethnic cleansing (like the other Andii)

A bit of leap of faith here but I think that the Liosan will not be on anyone's side as they feel all other races are unworthy. This racist dogma I suspect would be what lead them into conflict with the FA who are single minded and dogmatic in their own way. If we ever hear about 'The Just Wars' I bet it turns out they were totally pointless genocidal wars or something.

Mind you that said the other Tiste have shown a bit of a propensity for slaughtering FA too.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Cougar;203655 said:

It's a nice theory DM but I reckon (for no reason other than their incredible arogance and attitude to other races) that the Liosan won't turn out to be in league with anyone. They seem to regard only themselves as worthy etc and I suspect they wouldn't be adverse to a spot of ethnic cleansing (like the other Andii)

A bit of leap of faith here but I think that the Liosan will not be on anyone's side as they feel all other races are unworthy. This racist dogma I suspect would be what lead them into conflict with the FA who are single minded and dogmatic in their own way. If we ever hear about 'The Just Wars' I bet it turns out they were totally pointless genocidal wars or something.

Hmm. Everything you just said there applied to the Tiste Edur too. They didn't think they were working for anyone (apart from the Warlock King, who knew). They are incredibly arrogant, dismissive of other races, liked to kill non-Edur, were openly racist to non-Edur.

All that just made it easier for the CG to manipulate them.

[Cougar]

DM: fair point about the Edur, I also meant to add that the apparent absenteeism of Osric in relation to his people may make it easier for the CG to manipulate them.

If he can make them believe that they are doing Osric's bidding or some such then they would be very easy to manipulate.(Personally I don't see them being on the CGs side though, just from a story structure perspective, not criticising the idea for any technical reason just I don't see it sitting in the story arc) You can save this post and stuff it up my backside when I'm proved wrong!!

Incidentally, my impression from RG was that perhaps there is no difference other than skin colour between the 3 tiste races (barring warrens obviously) and that the differences were perhaps no more different than perceived differences between humans of different races.

I think you may have already written about this in some detail DM, or maybe it was Abyss.

[dolfanuk]

isn't their god already being impersonated? wasn't this strongly implied in house of chains when they met trull etc.?

that osserc/osric had gone walkabouts and someone else was in his place???

[Aptorian]

Yes, L'orics familar had been filling in for Osserc.

It was killed by the T'lan Imass hunting the Unbound. TIs don't like false gods so they killed it, never mind the fact that it left Kurald Liosan.. or Thyrlan? What ever place it is they hang out, with out a doorman and guide.

Which reminds me, either the Liosan have uber kevlar armor or their magic is pretty superb for them to have survived a full blast with a cusser.

[Lancelot]

Aptorian;203707 said:

Which reminds me, either the Liosan have uber kevlar armor or their magic is pretty superb for them to have survived a full blast with a cusser.

Good point, but i'll have to lean to the former, we all know the effect that moranth munitions have on magic. A la Raest!

[Mael]

Why do you think that the Edur are any less long lived than thier Tiste Counterparts?

Seren Pedac reflects on the increadible beauty and longevity possessed by the Edur women when thinking about trull Senger and how he would be interested in her. She implies that the Edur woman have a longer then human lifespan and almost eternal beauty.

Also, the absense of actual elders, in thier tribal society seems to support this notion as all those individual who are considdered as "elders", such as Hanradi Kellag or Trulls father, are still leading wars and are in fine fighting form. Udinass' nemerous descriptions and conversations of dressing the dead also mentioned nothing about dressing edur that died of old age. All the Edur he spoke about dressing died of injuries cause by battle (rare) or accidents.

I have not seen a single sign of any "old" edur in the books whatsoever. The closest you would come to seeing any Edur that display signs of advanced age would be Mosag and his K'risnan and thier debilitation comes from channelling chaos.

Off Topic: Clip notes that the light in KG is "a gift from father light". And where do we get our light from at night during darkness? The moon.

[Obdigore]

Im actually just re-reading RG (for the umpteenth time) and wondering:

How does Ruin control the level of light in KG? Udinaas tells him to 'turn the dimmer up, dumbass' and he does.

Thoughts?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Aptorian;203707 said:

Which reminds me, either the Liosan have uber kevlar armor or their magic is pretty superb for them to have survived a full blast with a cusser.

I think we all remember L'oric and his ability to get stabbed in the back without dying (or doing anything to prevent it). That was defensive Kurald Thyrllan in action.