[Lisheo]

Ive been rereading the whole series and it seems to me there are various laws that result in the formation of Soletakens, eg drinking Tiams blood, and theres also a line in RG which mentions that the gift is transmitted from mothers to kids. But Im just wondering, what exactly is Soletaken/Divers? I mean,it seems to be some form of ascendancy almost.

[Flawed]

That's the question no one really knows.

They just are.

They are born and the whole Soletaken thing etc is very very old. How they originally came about and if they are natural i don't know.

There seems to be a close link however between Soultaken and Imass.

Some people are born mages, very few. Some are born soultaken. I think its an innate thing.

I'm explaining thing brilliantly!

Anyhow. I think they are natural as the First Empire tried to falsify it through the ritual that went awry needing the tlan imass to come and clear up. Perhaps out of chagrin for what they had originally created who knows?

Have i confused it more? I'm sure.

Think ill have some shortbread to make it up to myself.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Lots of information here:

http://encylopaediamalazica.pbwiki.com/Sol...n+and+D%27ivers

[Aptorian]

Dolorous Menhir;203074 said:

Lots of information here:

http://encylopaediamalazica.pbwiki.com/Sol...n+and+D%27ivers

Quote

Heboric, re: the Human First Empire and Soletaken...'Her daughter chose the Path of the Soletaken, a fraught journey, that. She was hardly unique, the twisted route was [b]a popular alternative to Ascension. More...earthly[b], they claimed. And older, and that which was old was in high favour in the last days of the First Empire...It was understandable that Elders of the day sought to ease their children's chosen path. Sought to create a new version of the old, risk-laden one - for that had crumbled, weakened, was cancerous. Too many of the Empire's young were being lost - and never mind the wars to the west-' (DG, UK MMPB, p.514)

I'd forgotten this quote, it always makes me wonder at the power of the first human empire. If everyone, or even just the aristocracy, knew the path to ascension... imagine the power!

And what the hell does thousands of ascendants do all day besides conquering the world? It's impressive that it was the ritual and not sheer powerplay that brought down the first empire...

[Abyss]

@Lisheo - note that there are different rules for draconean soletaken from other shapeshifters.

@apt - i wondered about that. Since it seems they could choose to become soletaken, albeit in a risky fashion, and we have not seen the FE ref's as a masive empire of ascendants or shapeshifters, i don't think anscendency was that prevalent, tho magic probably was, in a Holds in Leth sort of way.

- Abyss, bets they had great tv.

[lasombra]

im taking it u cant inherit ur fathers soletaken blood? only if ur mother has it?
that is what im understanding

[Illuyankas]

On a side note, the quote in Apt's post - "the wars to the west" - Shal-Morzinn?

[Abyss]

lasombra;203228 said:

im taking it u cant inherit ur fathers soletaken blood? only if ur mother has it?
that is what im understanding

It's not that simple. We have no idea if shapeshifting, generally, is inheritable or not (ie: one/both parents had it so the kid is a shapeshifter). We know it can be caused by magic (FE Ritual, Krul's gift to Buke), but Culp said they were born, not made.

With draconic soletaken, it's even more complex, because the ones we've seen either drank from/shagged Tiam (Rake, Ruin, Ossi, Scabby, Korat/Orfantal and co) were born by Tiam (who is a Goddess, after all), or the unusual exceptions of Rud, who was born to Menandore who claims she put a lot of work into him, and i assume she doesn't just mean sheboining Udinaas (Wyval and all), labour pains and hiding the kid; and Spite, who was born to Sheltana and Draconus, both draconic.

- Abyss, thinks those genome-mapping peole had it easy...

[Dolorous Menhir]

lasombra;203228 said:

im taking it u cant inherit ur fathers soletaken blood? only if ur mother has it?
that is what im understanding

I don't think we can make up rules like this from the extremely limited examples of Soletaken families. I mean, all we have to go on is

Osserc + unknown female = L'oric, not Soletaken Eleint
Rake + unknown female = his children, don't appear to be Soletaken Eleint
Osserc + Tiam = Menandore, Sukul Ankhada, Soletaken Eleint
Sheltatha Lore + Draconus = Envy, Spite, only Spite confirmed Soletaken Eleint
Scabby + Tiam = Sheltatha Lore, Soletaken Eleint
Menandore + Udinaas = Rud, Soletaken Eleint

You can interpret this in a number of ways. For example, Osserc may not yet have been a Soletaken Eleint when he fathered L'oric. Remember that the parents became Soletaken Eleint at a particular point in time (or over several points in time) and the birth of their children may have come before that. Moreover, all the children but Rud could have become Soletaken Eleint at some point during their lifetimes, rather than being born that way.

The example of Rud makes it undeniable that being a Soletaken Eleint is an inherited trait (since there is no chance that he has drunk the blood of Tiam). But apart from that, it's far from clear. We need to know more.

late edit: Also, if the mother of Rake's children was Tiam, then we have a Soletaken Eleint and the source of all Soletaken Eleint (via her blood) producing a bunch of non-Soletaken Eleint weaklings. That throws a spanner in the works. We know that Rake's children are not Soletaken Eleint, because if they were the outcome of the battle with the Tiste Edur on Drift Avalii in HoC would've been much different.

[Obdigore]

DM just killed it for me.

[ShadowOwl]

Onrack said he expected Rud to be soletaken because his mother was. So it seems to be the mother that passes on soletaken eleint. I think L'oric's mother was the queen of dreams as he contacts her for advice and seemed close to her. Therefore he would not be soletaken, like Osseric's daughters, whose mother was Tiam.

If Phaed's mother was on the Silanda, she was Tiste Andii making me think Rake's children were probably the result of his relationship with several Tiste Andii women?

[Illuyankas]

Phaed's mother is Envy. Possibly, so is Nimander's. Spite is Soletaken, Phaed is not. So it isn't just passed on by the mother.

[ShadowOwl]

Illuyankas;203283 said:

Phaed's mother is Envy. Possibly, so is Nimander's. Spite is Soletaken, Phaed is not. So it isn't just passed on by the mother.

How could Phaed's mother be Envy when she saw her mother's head on the Silanda?

[Illuyankas]

So Nimander's is, and Braven Tooth was wrong. Nimander's still not a Soletaken.

Note I'm not saying Envy isn't a Soletaken. It's just, if she was, and the theory was right, then Nimander would be Soletaken too. And if she's not, then Spite wouldn't be either. It might be more randomly genetic, or it's from other sources.

[Folken]

OR SE just picks a character to be soletaken as he pleases?

[Illuyankas]

DON'T SPOIL OUR FUN

[ShadowOwl]

Must have missed that - where did it say Envy is his mother?

[Illuyankas]

Talking about Rake and Envy getting it on, after Draconus was 'killed' by Rake. There was some confusion about whether Phaed was Nimander's sister (half sister) or daughter, based on lines from TBH, RG and the Draconic Family Tree.

[ShadowOwl]

I do remember Rake and Envy as she was after him when they met up in MoI, but I didn't think they had kids. There is a line in RG from Nimander about the Silanda .."the ship that had taken their parents on a pathetic journey in search of the one whom every Tiste Andii of Drift Avalii called Father, Anomander Rake." That's why I thought were grandkids of Rake, but their parents were just Tiste Andii.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Oh ok, I didn't remember that Rake and Envy had the children. I was thinking that if Osserc and Scabby can knock up Tiam, then Rake certainly did.