[ANOMAGNUS]

Does anyone thing that Anomander's sword will be broken by Karsa Orlong?

They both wield massive swords, both swords contain souls, and both characters chain souls. And they are the two strongest willed characters in the book.

I'm just curious as to who else could shatter the sword. I dont think Anomander is capable of doing it himself.

Personally, i think Karsa will defeat Anomander, before he himself, falls to the Forkrul Assail, Calm, when Bairoth Gild keeps his promise to step aside when she comes for him, and Orlongs sword shatters.

[drinksinbars]

wow thats a lot in one post

i think rake will shatter dragnipur, and i think it will be down to paran to convince him, hopefullyt in this next installment. also i dont think an FA would stand a chance against karsa now. one of these days tavore is going to take exception to always running iinto karsa and set the entire 14th agaisnt him, which wouldnt go down well;)

i wish...

[Flawed]

Rake will stab the CG through his eyebrow. Then after Parans urging he will break the sword or Paran will and then all the freed things will have words with the CG being the only one around as they escape.

Everyone else will step in and clean up after this and live happily ever after.

That or the various pieces of the CG are kept within the shattered warren of KE. When this is healed he will be mended and well chuffed then bugger off back home. No harm meant. Sorry and all that.

[Aptorian]

you know, after SE wasn't able to think up anything more clever than slicing of Rhualds swordarm to kill him, I wouldn't be surprised if Rake just ends up chopping the CG up with dragnipur.

But Karsa's sword beating Dragnipur, pur'leeease. The flint sword is just well crafted flint with an imass blessing and two souls trapped in it. Rake's sword is created by an elder god who probably used ten's of thousands of years on that thing - It's like comparing a sling shot to a neuclearbomb

[Battalion]

I thought that Traveller was going to break Dragnipur with Rake's old sword.

[Veilside]

Battalion;195422 said:

I thought that Traveller was going to break Dragnipur with Rake's old sword.

Whaaaa? How did you manage to come to that assumption?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Veilside;195594 said:

Whaaaa? How did you manage to come to that assumption?

A potted history of this theory:

HoC - Traveller collects the sword Vengeance from Andarist's corpse. Rake made this sword, he used it before he got Dragnipur.

MT - a reading (by Feather Witch?) says that the Knight of X Hold (either Dragon or Dark, both Rake) will cross swords with his own vengeance. This can be read as a sly reference to the fact that Rake had a sword by that name, now held by one of the few characters likely capable of defeating Rake.

(Note I'm assuming Traveller is Dassem Ultor, which is widely accepted.)

So, Traveller will fight Rake. By this theory.

Counterarguments:

- Why would they fight each other? The pair have no history that I can think of, and though Rake has been a past enemy of the Malazan Empire and Traveller was once leader of its armies, I still don't think that's a strong motive for a fight at this point in time.

- What storyline purpose would it serve? Both characters are essentially good guys, from the reader's perspective. I can't think of any plot reason to have the two fight and possibly one die - what would it do? I can see Rake dying, certainly, but at the hand of Dassem Ultor? Why? And the other way round, well, I just think there's more coming in Dassem's story arc than challenging Rake and losing.

Can't think of any other reasons against. It's as well-supported an idea as many respectable theories, but I just don't like the idea of it very much.

[Veilside]

Dolorous Menhir;195612 said:

A potted history of this theory:

HoC - Traveller collects the sword Vengeance from Andarist's corpse. Rake made this sword, he used it before he got Dragnipur.

MT - a reading (by Feather Witch?) says that the Knight of X Hold (either Dragon or Dark, both Rake) will cross swords with his own vengeance. This can be read as a sly reference to the fact that Rake had a sword by that name, now held by one of the few characters likely capable of defeating Rake.

(Note I'm assuming Traveller is Dassem Ultor, which is widely accepted.)

So, Traveller will fight Rake. By this theory.

Counterarguments:

- Why would they fight each other? The pair have no history that I can think of, and though Rake has been a past enemy of the Malazan Empire and Traveller was once leader of its armies, I still don't think that's a strong motive for a fight at this point in time.

- What storyline purpose would it serve? Both characters are essentially good guys, from the reader's perspective. I can't think of any plot reason to have the two fight and possibly one die - what would it do? I can see Rake dying, certainly, but at the hand of Dassem Ultor? Why? And the other way round, well, I just think there's more coming in Dassem's story arc than challenging Rake and losing.

Can't think of any other reasons against. It's as well-supported an idea as many respectable theories, but I just don't like the idea of it very much.

Argh, another seems like I need another re-read then Thanks for clearing that up.

[Abyss]

Question: do we know that Rake actually MADE Grief/Veng'? He was carrying it, sure, but do we have confirmation he actually manufactured the thingy?

On another note, can't assume that by the time Rake faces his old sword, it will still be Traveller carrying it.


- Abyss, wonders where Traveller finds time for that lame tv show.

[Flawed]

Im sure in the book where Andarist is illed that he states it was discarded by its maker ( Rake ) in favour of one more suiting his nature / personality. Draginpur ( Chim )

[Agraba]

Quote

you know, after SE wasn't able to think up anything more clever than slicing of Rhualds swordarm to kill him

Gah, why do people keep thinking this? That is obviously not what it takes to kill Rhulad, else Karsa wouldn't have required the fullest efforts of Kuru Qan as well as all of his and Samar Dev's, and the ancient Toblakai's souls just to get to the CG's warren and stop Rhulad in his tracks. Otherwise, we saw how easy it was for Rhulad to just regain the sword and come back to life, and given that, we know the Seguleh 12th could have just cut his sword arm off 1000 times, it wouldn't make a difference.

As for Karsa against Rake... I don't think he'd make it. He seemed almost on par with the Seguleh 12th, but only won out because of his sheer size compared to hers. Rake killed the 7th, we don't know how he stands with the others, and I don't think getting caught and being dangled upside-down would be a problem for him against Karsa. Besides, I'm not so sure Karsa's natural ottattaral-blood makes him immune to Kurald Galain.

I personally favour him facing Traveller. Although, personally, I think it would be sweet to see him go against Ganoes' shadow-werewolf form.

[Mael]

Agraba;195740 said:

As for Karsa against Rake... I don't think he'd make it. He seemed almost on par with the Seguleh 12th, but only won out because of his sheer size compared to hers. Rake killed the 7th, we don't know how he stands with the others, and I don't think getting caught and being dangled upside-down would be a problem for him against Karsa. Besides, I'm not so sure Karsa's natural ottattaral-blood makes him immune to Kurald Galain.

I personally favour him facing Traveller. Although, personally, I think it would be sweet to see him go against Ganoes' shadow-werewolf form.

He toyed with the Segula 12th, then smashed her wrists, then dangled her upside down, then thought about having his way with her...i'd hardly call that "on par"

[Brennan]

As an alternate theory, I think the Rake vs. Dassem is a misdirection, and the real plot is rake going back to where Dragnipur was forged, and breaking the sword. The vengance he will cross with is actually the vengance he took on those who tried to destroy the shadow realm--and perhaps Kilmandaros.

The implications of breaking Dragnipur are serious. It is fundamental to the nature of order, and seems to have deep implications for the nature of houses and holds. There are all the creatures that would escape (dragons, demons, ascendants, gods)--that will take an army of heroes to defeat.

I think Erikson enjoys toying with alternate histories and alternate interpretations of prophecy. Especially history--but that is a different topic. Suffice it to say, I think the histories we are told in the book are always myopic and wrong.

[ShadowOwl]

I remember that while in the sword, Draconis shows Paran that chaos is overtaking order, resulting in it all going to the abyss. I think that as an elder god, Draconis will be needed and that Paran and Rake will work together to get him out without breaking the sword.

Paran has an interesting mind (beside the power of being Master of the Deck), has been in and out of the sword before, and I think he’ll figure out a way for him and Rake to take Draconis out of the sword. Rake would have to forgo vengeance against Paran (for being in his sword) and Draconis (for whatever beef they had that put him in the sword), for this to work.

Maybe Hood (who has used his warren to circumvent the CG) or K’rul (the Path maker himself) or even Shadowthrone (as the Shadow warren wanders and can be at two different places in time at the same time) are possible assistants.

Or, and this is a real crazy long shot, Rake could make up with Mother Dark (who will also be destroyed if chaos catches up to her) and get her to somehow help move Draconis thru the dark where the chains go and back into an accessible warren. Who knows, eh?

[LordRake420]

Karsa and Rake better not fight!!! Unless it's like the Karsa/Icarnium tussle where it ends quickly without vicous death hah! Rake is my favorite in the series and Karsa is up there as well.

[Brennan]

Did no one else think that the end of RG made it very clear that the way to destroy a sword was 1) find a stronger sword, or 2) take it back to the forge. that was certainly a hint!

Karsas sword wasn't capable--it couldn't break the crippled gods sword.
Vengance backed by a unified will might, but it didn't before (when Rake beat draconus), so I have trouble seeing that change. So, the forge is more likely. The alternative is perhaps Rake defending Hood, which doesn't seem like a real option.

I do wonder where the sword was made. And what link there is between the sword and mother dark.

b

[snoopster]

Dolorous Menhir;195612 said:

MT - a reading (by Feather Witch?) says that the Knight of X Hold (either Dragon or Dark, both Rake) will cross swords with his own vengeance. This can be read as a sly reference to the fact that Rake had a sword by that name, now held by one of the few characters likely capable of defeating Rake.

Having read RG, I'm assuming this is a reference to Clip (now accompanied by Rake's offspring), who seems to feel he was betrayed and so is looking for vengeance.

[Dolorous Menhir]

snoopster;198873 said:

Having read RG, I'm assuming this is a reference to Clip (now accompanied by Rake's offspring), who seems to feel he was betrayed and so is looking for vengeance.

Possibly, but two objections:

1. Dassem Ultor (Traveller) actually has a sword called Vengeance that was made by Rake. That seems a stronger link that "Clip might want revenge".

2. Don't expect me to believe that Clip will take on Rake. He might be an arrogant little punk, but he doesn't appear to be suicidal.

[tiam]

Brennan;198865 said:

Did no one else think that the end of RG made it very clear that the way to destroy a sword was 1) find a stronger sword, or 2) take it back to the forge. that was certainly a hint!

Karsas sword wasn't capable--it couldn't break the crippled gods sword.
Vengance backed by a unified will might, but it didn't before (when Rake beat draconus), so I have trouble seeing that change. So, the forge is more likely. The alternative is perhaps Rake defending Hood, which doesn't seem like a real option.

I do wonder where the sword was made. And what link there is between the sword and mother dark.

b

However this is a contradiction. Draconus made the sword so is the one who could break it (or was it simply the forge? If so then why was Withal so vital? Surely someone else could have done it.) but the only way he can get out is if its broken. Also if its simply the forge that matters then i imagine this place is in KG and only Clip can go back there is what he says is true