[Aztiel]

I am wondering what the overall point of the Toc/Redmask storyline was, besides to see Toc killed off again, seemingly only to destroy his friend completely. Is his friend Onrack or Tool? They are kind of the same character, I get them confused.

We already see how easily the Letherii army is destroyed by the Malazan army, we don't really need another example. The KCCM don't really seem to be that central to this arc; I think the discovery of the eggs in the sand by the BHs was more important, and the Floating Citadels in previous books. I just... don't really get the point...


Also, I just wanted to say HA, who saw Brys Beddict coming back as soon as he died the first time.

[caladanbrood]

It's a very good question.

I think the key is what Erikson said in that interview someone just posted - he's now writing to set up the final books - so the plotlines are looking forward much more than they used to.
So, hopefully, it'll prove to have been more than a pointless story, or a stupidly longwinded way of introducing a Barghast vs KCCM war.

[Terez]

Aztiel;191126 said:

I am wondering what the overall point of the Toc/Redmask storyline was, besides to see Toc killed off again, seemingly only to destroy his friend completely. Is his friend Onrack or Tool? They are kind of the same character, I get them confused.

Toc's friend was Tool. Trull's friend was Onrack. Yeah, they're similar in many ways, but not that similar.

[caladanbrood]

Plus, Onrack's wife is Tool's sister;)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack's mistress, surely? Onrack's ex-wife was the Whirlwind Goddess.

[caladanbrood]

He calls her his wife, in the epilogue.

[tjc52]

What we're the eggs in the sand? Don't remember that bit from tBH...

[ch'arlz]

caladanbrood;191132 said:

It's a very good question.

I think the key is what Erikson said in that interview someone just posted - he's now writing to set up the final books - so the plotlines are looking forward much more than they used to.
So, hopefully, it'll prove to have been more than a pointless story, or a stupidly longwinded way of introducing a Barghast vs KCCM war.

There is a possibility that Redmask is not dead and gone. The Kechra inexplicably turned on and killed a person wearing a red mask (granted, also carrying Redmask's weapons) who turned out to be a Letherii, but the scene ended with no further explication. There is something that felt odd to me about that scenario, leaving a question as to whether the person who died was a decoy and Redmask will return with his Kechra allies in another role.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Well, we now know that the KCCM set themselves against the Edur/Letheri empire. Does that mean they (long tails) are opposing the CG? If so why? Does it mean the CG is allied with the KCNR, which would explain the long tails' enmity towards his other allies?

Plenty of implications to consider.

As for Redmask, he muses to himself how awkward it was that one who remembers his father, and said father's wont to adopt certain chldren, had survived. It seems he was always a letherii, and didn't want anyone to remember. This probably has something to do with his initial exile too.

[caladanbrood]

ch said:

There is a possibility that Redmask is not dead and gone. The Kechra inexplicably turned on and killed a person wearing a red mask (granted, also carrying Redmask's weapons) who turned out to be a Letherii, but the scene ended with no further explication. There is something that felt odd to me about that scenario, leaving a question as to whether the person who died was a decoy and Redmask will return with his Kechra allies in another role.

Aye, but reading the scene, it seems to have left no room for Erikson to find a reason that the person the K'Chain killed wasn't Redmask. So the implication is that Redmask was a Letharii child adopted by the Awl when he was young.

[Gem Windcaster]

So called pointless stories in earlier books have proved to be very important. Also, I didn't think it was pointless. But I can see what people are getting at when they call it that.
To tell you the truth, I have no clue as to what really happened with the whole KCCM - Redmask alliance. I can't figure this one out. we'll have to wait for more information in a later book.

[Agraba]

Onrack only pronounced Kilava his wife in RG. Before, she was his mistress, and his wife was what became the Whirlwind goddess.

[Onrack the breakable]

Udinass noted how the powers always broke out in 3s. There was ST, Hood, and Menandore alliance where ST offers assistance far beyond what an elder god could then they conclude by saying its not an alliance but they will assist each other mutually until... Then when Toc dies, we hear a narritave saying something about, "what was the goal of the KCCM, why, and how? Only Redmask could answer that but he failed and so is dead. The alliance now at an end." Didn't anyone else think that may be related to the Shadowthrone/Hood/Menandore aliance, and then Menandore getting beheaded (by her own sister) then being blasted to tiny bits by Hedge and QB who were acting as Shadowthrones "hands in this matter".

Theres all sorts of gods in the game but its impossible to even tell which puppet is dancing for which god. Except for QB and Hedge it seems. The only thing we can say for certain is that whether mortal or gods, not many alliances last very long, and most end with betrayal. Even Rake who "walked away" was considered by those like Clip to be traitors.

Its clear, getting back to Redmask that Redmask knew almost NOTHING about the KCCM anyway, he says so in his own thoughts. There was just a bunch of misdirection everywhere. Except for QB and Hedge who are Shadowthrone's "hands" in this matter. And we learn elsewhere that Kelenved/ST has little use for feints and misdirection having destroyed some supposedly unbeatable Untan knights by letting them prance all about the field of battle while his troops slaughtered the untan support troops then finished by wiping the now vulnerable knights out.

I hope matters clear up a little soon. About the only thing clear is that those that want most to be leaders (or gods) are the least competent at doing so. I hope in the last few books Karsa starts killing gods wholesale.

[caladanbrood]

What? Kellanved has little use for misdirection? He's on the throne of shadow - it's quite clear than illusion and misdirection are quite formidable weapons in his arsenal;)

[Battalion]

I think that the Redmask we see in RG was never the real Redmask, he just thought that he was -- trained from birth by the real Redmask, he was fooled into believing he was Redmask.
I'm confused.
Anyway, the real Redmask had the monsters posted to protect his apprentice, with orders to kill him if he fncked up.

[Sir Thursday]

Onrack the breakable;191565 said:

Udinass noted how the powers always broke out in 3s. There was ST, Hood, and Menandore alliance where ST offers assistance far beyond what an elder god could then they conclude by saying its not an alliance but they will assist each other mutually until... Then when Toc dies, we hear a narritave saying something about, "what was the goal of the KCCM, why, and how? Only Redmask could answer that but he failed and so is dead. The alliance now at an end." Didn't anyone else think that may be related to the Shadowthrone/Hood/Menandore aliance, and then Menandore getting beheaded (by her own sister) then being blasted to tiny bits by Hedge and QB who were acting as Shadowthrones "hands in this matter".

I didn't think that meant anything other than that the alliance between the Awl and the K'Chain Che'malle was at an end...there really wasn't any link between that plotline and the Menandore/ST/Quick Benn & Hedge/Scabby's Finnest plotline.


Sir Thursday

(Yay! 500th post!)

[tiam]

Just found interesting reference. P634 when we see Redmask reflecting on how he killed his father (whether its his father or figurative) in any case he say

' weapons we were once born to, long ago. Is that not Awl enough? Am i not more Awl than any other among the Renfayar?'

This possibly explains why he was Letherii but his POV explains why he thinks of himself as Awl.

[ch'arlz]

tiam;192677 said:

This possibly explains why he was Letherii but his POV explains why he thinks of himself as Awl.

I recall that now, but my feeling when reading it was that it was in response to his status as exile.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Battalion;192351 said:

I think that the Redmask we see in RG was never the real Redmask, he just thought that he was -- trained from birth by the real Redmask, he was fooled into believing he was Redmask.
I'm confused.
Anyway, the real Redmask had the monsters posted to protect his apprentice, with orders to kill him if he fncked up.

I like this theory.

[Onrack the breakable]

Originally Posted by Battalion
I think that the Redmask we see in RG was never the real Redmask, he just thought that he was -- trained from birth by the real Redmask, he was fooled into believing he was Redmask.

Raymond Luxury Yacht;192702 said:

I like this theory.

I agree its a simple explanation. If you want to get more complex you could consider the whole book is about the "Nameless Ones" who steal peoples names and some memories or at least background info and then go about attempting global domination and control and all the wars and such are simply to keep the heros too busy to notice they are being used as nothing more than cattle, and then devoured or crushed and tossed in the dumpster when their use is at an end.

There were quite a few characters like Redmask that seem to just have a name and some obscure, murky, and dramatic history. Consider Iron Bars and what Shurq Ellale (divine undead) recounts.

"Shurq consoled her agitated conscience by reminding herself that Iron Bars had spoken of Jacuruku with some familiarity- at least in so far as knowing its name. And as for Corlos's wide-eyed prayers to a few dozen divinities, well, he was prone to melodrama. A dozen knights wouldn't have been enough to halt Iron Bars and his Crimson Guard, determined as they were to do whatever it was they had to do, which in this instance, was cross Jacuruku from one coast to the other, then find themselves another ship."

I think this clearly shows that Shurq was smart enough to call the "Nameless Ones" (or at least Iron Bars) on the bluff and teach them a lesson for their brazen stupidity. Is Shurq some kind of elder goddess? It seems so to me but maybe not.

Also Fear Singer in the group questing after Scabbys soul in the finnest. Fear makes like he is doing it all for Seren Pedac, like she is his biatch or something. When Seren considers leaving, Fear makes like she is betraying him, when as far as I can see Fear never did anything for anyone- while in his mind he is the noble hero of the story or some such nonsense. Its like a bunch of children hounding simple minded and weak willed parents into doing whatever they want. Or like a bunch of scummy priests trying to enslave their own god. Its good to know that at least The Worm of Autumn didn't put up with that crap and slayed all her own priests and priestesses. So far the only god to take its followers to task for even some of their sins and misdeeds.

Anyway, I think alot of people are reading these books and only utilizing the intellect of a 4 year old. Its apalling.