[Abyss]

Dolorous Menhir;201625 said:

Since when did people get "infected" by the KCCM spores?

It affects the unborn, and they are sometimes BORN with KCCM attributes. That does not mean adult Barghast are suddenly going to sprout scales....

We don't know. We don't know squat. That's the beauty of it.

- Abyss, finds bliss in ignorance.

[Danno]

IMHO, I don't think the KCCM are descended from dragons. I personally think they are, (drum roll please), the evolved descendants of dinosaurs. Maybe this should be in the crazy theories section. However, this would be in keeping with some themes in the books, like the Imass being the fictional counterparts of neanderthals.

I am on my first read of RG and I can't exactly remember the exact character who made the connection between KCCM and dragons. However, I do remember thinking when I read this of people in the middle ages mistaking dinosaur skulls for the skulls of dragons. Just becasue the KCCM are large and look like what people may think of dragons doesn't mean the KCCM are dragons. I wish I could remember the exact quote of the character, but I have just finished the first read. Arghhh...my brain is melting....melting....

Also, and this just occurred to me, I remember a character describing the tracks of the KCCM like those of a huge, fast, scary bird. Sorry, I have just finished my first read, My brain is melting, so I can't direct you to the quote exactly, but this would be futher support for the dinosaur - KCCM connection. Modern theory puts dinosaurs much closer to birds than reptiles on the evolutionary scale.

And also, for what it's worth, I think Red Mask is dead. The first person point of view death kind of sealed that for me.

Anyways, blew yer minds! Cheers!

[Trident]

I don't understand how Redmask basically lost his power -- in the beginning of the book, he was a one man army but that never played a role in any of the battles. HE also seemed to lose his tactical abilities.

Anyways, I also don't understand why Toc went through all of that trouble in MOI to die in some useless battle on Lether -- why did he come back to life as Anaster only to die in Lether, same with the Grey Swords after Coral...the narrative has on occasion seemed to break apart in this series, and it's probably because SE has been so ambitious with the amount of storylines that they get jumbled.

[wintermute]

Redmask never lost his power. He was carving through the Letherii like nobody's business. He only lost because the KCM came out of nowhere and took him out. Also, his "tactical prowess" is based on one battle that he could have planned for years. After all he chose the location, the alignment of his troops, and everything. He was the one doing all the attacking so he didn't really have to respond to the Letherii. But also, in the other battles, his big problem was that the Letherii were just better. Tactical skill can only get you so far when you're fighting without real soldiers against a side that has
a)real soldiers
b)superior weapons and armor
c)mages that can take out an army
Considering all that its not surprising that he lost
The Toc storyline did seem unnecessary. I can only assume that it's leading somewhere, and that being the case, I can't see Toc staying dead (although by now he's probably died more times than Rhulad).

[Danno]

As far as I understand, Red Mask's skills were mostly focused on the individual side of combat, mainly with the whip and the axe. He was the charasmatic leader of the Awl, without a doubt, but was described as nothing special re. tactics. The novel never is really clear about Red Mask's military experiences outside the Awl, during his exile, but it is clear that Toc was asked by Red Mask to help with training.

In the book early on, Red Mask asked Toc to train his Awl warriors in Malazan battle tactics. Before Toc arrived, Awl battle tactics were ineffective against the organized and heavilly armed Letherii army. After the training of the Awl warriors by Toc, the Awl scored their first victory against the Letherii. This training is only assumed, because the author never really follows up on the idea. The victory in the first battle may have been more due to Toc's training of the Awl warriors in Malazan battle tactics and combat, and Letherii laziness, than any tactical brilliance on the part of Red Mask.

Although Red Mask provided the charasmatic focus of the Awl, maybe the Toc storyline provided a rational for the relative success of the Awl. Without Toc to teach them new Malazan tactics, the Awl storyline really couldn't have changed a lot, in spite of Red Mask. The Awl, who were basically nomads, would have gathered under Red Mask and been slaughtered, as usual, by the Letherii military machine, which was well armed and trained.

Of course, Toc could only help so much. The Awl were nomads utterely dependent on their herds, they had inferior arms compared to the Letherii and they didn't have mages, as Wintermute notes. So they lost in the end.

Also, with Toc as part of the story, the author could tie up the storyline with Tool.

[Imperial Historian]

Red Mask is described as a great war leader and strategist, scoring a large number of victories in raids against the superior letherii forces, his strategical skill seemed to be in laying ambushes and surgical strikes.

Seemingly though by the end of the book he seemed to have abandoned this idea, engaging in pitched battles, and seemingly surrendering to stupidity... I got the distinct impression that he didn't want the Awl to succeed, only to blod the Letherii as much as possible.

That said Tocs malazan training had equipped the awl better to fight pitched battles, just nowhere near enough...

[ShadowOwl]

I thought it was interesting that the Awl were in tribes, one of which had 'copper faces', they had a death night adult initiation ritual, both like the white face Barghast, and they had a old old story of antlered shaman initiating a ritual that spanned continents and sucked the magic right out of the grounds and all living things (where they fought that battle), like the Imass ritual.
So if they are unritualled Imass decendents, they evolved with similar Barghast traditions, and finally the last Awl are saved by the 'white faced' Bargast led by an Imass. Sort of a cool circle of circles.

[Lisheo]

Redmask wanted to die, people....
Hes certainly qualified for Ascendancy, dont you think?
I suspect he has done a Kellanved...

[Richai]

Thelomen Toblakai;198995 said:

The Toc storyline was more confusing to me. I didn't understand why SE made him survive the attack on the Grey Swords only to kill him off later in the book when between arriving with the Awl and dying he did very little.

does there need to be any other reason than for Tool to live through the "I could have saved my friend if I had only been faster" thing?
might just be me, but SE has surpassed himself with this book in his ability to make me cry.... 3 times in the last 100 pages, and this was one of them.
Tool and the barghast were wandering around, hiding, planning vengeance for Toc and the Grey swords' deaths, only to find out that Toc died because they didn't act sooner. To me it's just brilliant!

[Mael]

Lisheo;203944 said:

Redmask wanted to die, people....
Hes certainly qualified for Ascendancy, dont you think?
I suspect he has done a Kellanved...

NOK Spoiler:

Spoiler

Kellanved and Cotillion didn't die to ascend, they passed into the Azath really beat up but alive nontheless.

[Obdigore]

Lisheo;203944 said:

Redmask wanted to die, people....
Hes certainly qualified for Ascendancy, dont you think?
I suspect he has done a Kellanved...

No. It is mentioned in the books that kell and dancer got away without dying (at least noone confirmed their deaths).

The person wearing the red mask and leading the last battle was hacked to 3 pieces by a pair of KCCM.

I agree with the theory that he wanted to bleed the lethari, but I also think that when he returned to the clans, and they kept wanting to strike and strike and we are better, he despaired keeping them alive, and decided to take as many leth down with the awl as he could. I would guess he was going to return to the KCCM and try to get them (somehow) to come slaughter the Lethari as well.

Also, I am still of the idea that the two KCCM are a mating pair, and sent out to help secure a 'stable' new colony, where they could spend some time breeding a new 'hive'.

I think the KCCM's ultimate strategy was to weaken the awl, and thrust the lethari out of that plains area, giving them a huge run of space to breed undisturbed.

[Coldsnap]

That he knew their names was pretty impressive, I thought. Really hints at some crazy communication going on there between RM and the KC.

[Vengeance]

Obdigore;205672 said:

No. It is mentioned in the books that kell and dancer got away without dying (at least noone confirmed their deaths).

The person wearing the red mask and leading the last battle was hacked to 3 pieces by a pair of KCCM.

I agree with the theory that he wanted to bleed the lethari, but I also think that when he returned to the clans, and they kept wanting to strike and strike and we are better, he despaired keeping them alive, and decided to take as many leth down with the awl as he could. I would guess he was going to return to the KCCM and try to get them (somehow) to come slaughter the Lethari as well.

Also, I am still of the idea that the two KCCM are a mating pair, and sent out to help secure a 'stable' new colony, where they could spend some time breeding a new 'hive'.

I think the KCCM's ultimate strategy was to weaken the awl, and thrust the lethari out of that plains area, giving them a huge run of space to breed undisturbed.

I don't really understand your idea about the KCCM going to secure a stable new colony. If they were coming from another colony then they could have brought 10 or so KCCM's and totally distroyed the awl without all of the subterfuge. I think that Red Mask had during his travels encountered a Matron and had became through his fight prowess the first sword of her hive. Then when he left the two KCCM's went with him to protect him and to make sure that he was worthy of being the first sword. When his battle plan failed then they killed him as being unworthy, and went back to the Matron to inform her.

[Zanth13]

Maybe the KC were fed up with getting there asses beat....They did alot of damage to the lether but also got jacked up in the process, if they would have continued with the battle they might have been killed.

So they said fuck that and left. taking out Redmask in the process.

(not to mention they probably knew that Tool and company were comming.)

[Abyss]

I wonder whether RM was a KC experiment of sorts - them trying to dominate humans by aspecting a leader of humans to themselves and then setting him on other humans to see what happened.

- Abyss, thinks it's maybe another book before KC and the Sunshine Band make a guest appearance.

[tiam]

Vengance;205691 said:

I don't really understand your idea about the KCCM going to secure a stable new colony. If they were coming from another colony then they could have brought 10 or so KCCM's and totally distroyed the awl without all of the subterfuge. I think that Red Mask had during his travels encountered a Matron and had became through his fight prowess the first sword of her hive. Then when he left the two KCCM's went with him to protect him and to make sure that he was worthy of being the first sword. When his battle plan failed then they killed him as being unworthy, and went back to the Matron to inform her.

This seems likely. There is an extract of a Letherii expedition about a defeated Kell Hunter having wounds that were done by a 'bladed tentacle' and also shorter deeper wounds that suggests RM used the ancient weapons used to defeat the KCCM to defeat the best Kell Hunter and make him first sword. When his defeat became evident and he was fleeing from battle they chose to kill him because of his failure. That he was Letherii seems like a moot point about his First Sword status

[Kurt Montandon]

tiam;205786 said:

When his defeat became evident and he was fleeing from battle they chose to kill him because of his failure. That he was Letherii seems like a moot point about his First Sword status

Redmask wasn't fleeing from battle when they killed him. For some bizarre reason, he thought he could still win the battle, and was glad to see the KCCM, and charge into the face of the enemy. I'm thinking the KCCM realized the battle was lost, and that Redmask was delusional, and killed him so that they could leave.

[Abyss]

kmmontandon;205789 said:

...I'm thinking the KCCM realized the battle was lost, and that Redmask was delusional, and killed him so that they could leave.

I'm thinking they were just terminating the experiment.

With extreme prejudice.

- Abyss, frees lab rats in his spare time. By 'free' means feeds to pythons.

[Vengeance]

How about this the Matron was defeated by the combined army's of the Edur and Andii on the content. But they didn't finish the job and instead turn on each other. So the Matron was able to escape and is now building up her power and searching out both allies and weak points in the people who surround her hive. All of the army's are coming together to take the KCCM down. Maybe even the KCNR went into some kind of hybernation state and only came out of it when the spell that Gathos placed over the area expired. Once the spell stopped some of there machines allowed them to sense the Matrons presence and they decided to take action. This probably belongs in the crazy theory's thread.

[Danno]

Some really interesting theories! I personally liked the idea that the KCCM needed living room and the theory of Red Mask being killed because he was no longer useful.

If the KCCM needed 'living space', they would need to weaken and get rid of the humans occupying the land. It makes a lot of sense for them to use human agents to accomplish this: to preserve KCCM secrecy and also to conserve the resources what you'd have to guess would be the remains of the KCCM civilisation.

Red Mask emerges as more of a pawn, being used by the KCCM along with the rest of the Awl to strike at the Letharii. When his usefulness ended, he was killed. Simple. Maybe an experiment, absolutely.