[Abyss]

Deragoth;196252 said:

As one of the above posters mentioned, I think this story is a prologue to a later book...

As i mentioned, the storyline let's us know the KC are active again, and interacting with humans in a totally new way.

Add that to the skykeeps "full of K'Chain Che'malle" in the Imperial warren in TB and you have a major new player in the books.

(and to avoid thread drift, i TB, to Kalam, Cotillion said "K'Chain Che'malle" - that doesn't mean it can't be short-tails - it probably is - , but we know no such thing, and no, that a shorttail skullbeat Ganash is not determinative).

- Abyss, pre-empts thread drift where possible.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;196221 said:

First Sword. And Toc told him, so he doesn't have any excuse not to know.

To be fair redmask didn't know what a "First Sword" was when Toc told him he was it. First Sword, Consort to the Maiden, King....

What i want to know is...who did redmask "Fool" with the mask when Toc says "Don't tell me the mask fooled them. Please...."

Was Toc referring to the KCCM (as in haha im wearing a matron facemask to trick you into thinking im in charge) or the Awl (as in haha im Letherii and you don't know it cause of my sexy red matron mask)

Also, it is mentioned that Toc (and his army) was there in answer to a prophecy of a final war and said "When one SEEKS the first sword of the KCCM..." leading me to believe he was actually looking for the first sword of the KCCM.

QuickTidal;198050 said:

HAHAHA, and the K'Chain Che'malle leader is actually Grimlock!!

LOL, me Grimlock KING!!!

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mael;198578 said:

What i want to know is...who did redmask "Fool" with the mask when Toc says "Don't tell me the mask fooled them. Please...."

Toc was obviously making a joke. He wasn't seriously suggesting that the KCCM accepted Redmask because of his mask. It was a joke, I don't see how you can view it the other way.

He speaks for some time about how Redmask has all these positions, obviously confused by this, and finally makes the humorous remark "tell me it wasn't the mask that fooled them" (roughly). A joke.

[Illuyankas]

Actually, I did think it was a joke, right up until the whole 'dead Redmask corpse is Letherii' bit. Then... I still thought it was a joke, but it's the only hint in there that things might not be as they seem. Not enough, though.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas;198600 said:

Actually, I did think it was a joke, right up until the whole 'dead Redmask corpse is Letherii' bit. Then... I still thought it was a joke, but it's the only hint in there that things might not be as they seem. Not enough, though.

I thought the Awl Elder blackmailing Redmask, and being killed for it, was a pretty big hint that things weren't as they seemed.

[Illuyankas]

Well, OK, that too. Damn hindsight.

[Gem Windcaster]

Since SE made such a big deal of this storyline, I say we haven't heard the last of it. It's just not the way SE does things. It does seem a bit off, for us. Now. I'm pretty sure it's going somewhere. I hope. Other than that, I can't figure anything out. Who Redmask is/was is a mystery of Wu proportions. Pretty much what any of you say could be the answer.

[Mael]

Dolorous Menhir;198597 said:

Toc was obviously making a joke. He wasn't seriously suggesting that the KCCM accepted Redmask because of his mask. It was a joke, I don't see how you can view it the other way.

He speaks for some time about how Redmask has all these positions, obviously confused by this, and finally makes the humorous remark "tell me it wasn't the mask that fooled them" (roughly). A joke.

That would make sense if he was just cracking a joke about him fooling the KCCM with the mask.

[Bl1nder]

Im confused my self about this. I mean at first the "he is clearly a Letherii" didnt register till about 1-2 days after i read it, now Im very confsued by it. But then again if Redmask was not the real redmask, I somewhat doubt he would of managed to fool the lizards. Plus, I dont think you just turn around and kill your Mortal Sword like that

[Thelomen Toblakai]

This whole storyline confused me.

I think Redmask is dead, the real Redmask. So if that was the real Redmask I don't think it matters because whoever he was he's dead now.

The Toc storyline was more confusing to me. I didn't understand why SE made him survive the attack on the Grey Swords only to kill him off later in the book when between arriving with the Awl and dying he did very little.
I do think he will appear again in some form serving Hood. But can anyone tell me why the Wolf Gods have his eye? Was it not a piece of a floating fortress that destroyed it? That doesn't seem like it should then belong to the Wolf Gods to me.

[Imperial Historian]

It's revealed in MOI, that it wasn't a piece of moon's spawn that took his eye like he thought, but a piece of chaos aspected to the wolf god's. Or something like that anyway.

I think Toc's presence was merely there to link in the story, so we could get another view of the Letherii, learn about the stirring of the KCCM and to give him a fitting death, reintroducing the white faces and tool at the same time.

[Quick_Ferret]

I got the impression that Redmask is still alive. Someone cut off Tocs' face, and the only character we've encountered doing that before was Redmask. I however have a vague recollection of "de-facing" the enemy was a Letherii custom. This could be a way of infiltrating the Letherii army but since that army was about the get comepletley annihilated (it did right?) that plan seems kind of half-assed. Just my 2 cents.

[McLovin]

No, I think the de-facing thing is a red herring. Redmask is dead (his final POV chapter leaves little room for doubt about that, IMO), but his storyline served to introduce living KCCM on the Letherii continent. It looks like maybe round 2 of Tiste vs. KCCM is coming - I think that's what SE is trying to set up here. Would also explain the massing of KCCM in the Imperial Warren, plus Clip's gathering of the Tiste Andii to find Rake. The two races are gathering for battle. Maybe Mother Dark is trying to break free of her KCCM-induced imprisonment, and the KCCM are gathering to stop her.

[Abyss]

re: 1st/mortal/champion sword of the KC - aside from being a superb warrior, Redmask didn't show any ascendant abilities. He didn't know why the KC followed him, and certainly didn't know what they were thinking. While we never saw just how he went about telling them what to do, he could have just been speaking very loud and slowly and pointing a lot...
"YOU. CHOP. SOLDIERS. LOTS. OVER *points towards Letherii army camp* THERE. When the SUN *points up* is THERE *points over to the east a bit*. Excellent. Truly i rawk!"

Point being, i don't think RM was 'invested' by the KC in the sense that Toc, Dassem, Brukhalian or Gruntle were by their respective gods. I think that Toc's comment stemmed from the fact the Grey Swords were looking for someone who had some warrior link to the KC, based on the incomplete visions from the Wolves.

Re: eyeballs: Toc lost his to a chunk of Moon's Spawn. Togg lost his in the Fall. Both wandered around in Chaos for a while before Togg found Toc and 'rode' him.

Re: Redmask being alive - it certainly seemed like from his POV the KC killed him. It also seemed that he was a Letherii. The real question was whether he was the original RM or someone who took on the role, and more important, why the KC chose to support him.

...and the KC, more than anything, were the point of the story. The other themes and closing out Toc's story were important, but the re-emergence of the KC was, imnsho, a key plot point in the books.

- Abyss, has a KC and the Sunshine Band t-shirt somewhere.

[Dolorous Menhir]

REDMASK WAS NOT THE MORTAL SWORD OF THE KCCM.

If you just keep that in mind, then you don't have to get into all this unnecessary debate over whether he was "invested with powers" by the entire race somehow.

TOC CALLED HIM THE FIRST SWORD.

Big difference.

[Stilgar]

I was under the impression that Redmask was a letherii adopted by the awl, in love of his stepfather daughter. To prove his valors he kill a KCCM but without effect on the girls and so kill her and be banished.
The KCCM use him to wreak havoc on possible opponent, kill a lot of letherii the closest structured military and annihilated the awl who know how to kill KCCM since they designed weapon very effective. For me Redmask has not failed the KCCM but had ended its usefulness. Redmask was just a sword for the KCCM.

[Kichiro]

I don't reply exactly. But I agree with Stilgar on the adoption thingy. Because that's the secret the elder knew about him that he didn't want the others to find out. So he can only have been the real red mask else he wouldn't have cared.

[Cougar]

For what it's worth I think that the collective musings of Abyss, DM and Stilgar have pretty much got this pinned down. I've been lurking on these forums for some time but couldn't be bothered posting and if I have noticed one thing it is that when it comes to wild speculation it is usually the most obvious intutive leap that is the correct answer.

I mean, think of all the time people spent saying hood isn't a Jaghut even though it was the most logical assumption based on the evidence, I know this isn't confimed but I favour the Sherlock Holmes route of basing what I think on the evidence not on what I would like to have happened and some leap of faith.

IMHO:
The redmask we saw from the begining was killed by the KC (the body was Letherii because he was always a Letherii this is the most logical assumption from his thoughts about being Awl enough and the secret he had that he did not want people to find out).

He was an adopted Letherii

The motives behind the KC involvement are unclear although the reason for their inclusion appears to serve the plot by introducing an active KC element in WU which probably has a purpose that will most probably be developed later.

The comment from TOC about fooling them seems most likely to be regarding about the fact that the KC are not purely following Redmask because he is wearing a mask of KC matron neck flesh (they obviously have their own purpose; which furthers the idea that they are part of an active and more wide reaching KC strategy, although this is by no means certain) If they were fooled by the mask alone they would not have killed him at the end.

[Abyss]

...and Toc, of anyone, would recognize KC Matron neckskin, thus being able to make the joke/comment, even if redmask (and half the forum ) didn't get it.

There is without a doubt some huge question marks about RM, and we may, or may not, ever get the answers. I think it was clear the KC were never 'fooled', and in fact, the scene between Deadsmell, Twilight and Tavore re the Shake suggested the KC may have reason not to like the Matrons all that much

That leaves open the possibility that RM may have ingratiated himself to them by killing a Matron at some point before it could enslave the two who followed him, or even freeing them, so to speak.

If, in effect, the entire KC domination of the world, enslaving the Jaghut, subsequent war with the Tiste and matron-death-cry-ends-existance thing was all the Matrons' fault and not the KC lizards themselves, that certainly alters a number of things we had taken for granted. Throw in Silchas' negotiations with the KN and it's anyone's guess how the KC plot line will develop in the next three books.

And in that respect, the Tos/Redmask plot told us a LOT.

- Abyss, uses mighty thread fu to tie all that back into thread.

[McLovin]

Abyss;199484 said:

If, in effect, the entire KC domination of the world, enslaving the Jaghut, subsequent war with the Tiste and matron-death-cry-ends-existance thing was all the Matrons' fault and not the KC lizards themselves,

Nice one Abyss. But aren't non-Matron KC's soulless? Which goes to your point about stuff being really only the Matrons' faults, but it also seems like it would be unlikely the KC would perform any actions independent of or against a Matron.

Unless they suddenly have developed souls. Or some non-KC figured out how to control them and are using them against the Matrons. Or against the Tiste.