[Mael]

longhorn;199509 said:

Nice one Abyss. But aren't non-Matron KC's soulless? Which goes to your point about stuff being really only the Matrons' faults, but it also seems like it would be unlikely the KC would perform any actions independent of or against a Matron.

Unless they suddenly have developed souls. Or some non-KC figured out how to control them and are using them against the Matrons. Or against the Tiste.

Not at all. The Undead KCCM were soulless. The living KCCM have souls and are individuals but with a hive mentality. They share thier power with the matron but that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't independant living beings.

[Abyss]

Ah, but therin lies the rub: what if the KC were only hive-like, BECAUSE THE MATRONS FORCED THEM TO BE!?!

Thus, if the Matrons were not scooping up impressionable widdle lizards in their vulnerable stage, might KC grow up to be independent individuals, possibly as RM's two guardians seemed to be, complete with names.

In other words, the entire path of KC civilization on Wu may have been defined by Matron control, but otherwise might not have been how the KC themselves would be.

- Abyss, blew your minds just then, i know.

[McLovin]

No wonder you Canadians do more weed. Hadn't thought o' that.

[Dark Mac]

Abyss;199525 said:

Ah, but therin lies the rub: what if the KC were only hive-like, BECAUSE THE MATRONS FORCED THEM TO BE!?!

Thus, if the Matrons were not scooping up impressionable widdle lizards in their vulnerable stage, might KC grow up to be independent individuals, possibly as RM's two guardians seemed to be, complete with names.

In other words, the entire path of KC civilization on Wu may have been defined by Matron control, but otherwise might not have been how the KC themselves would be.

- Abyss, blew your minds just then, i know.

Aren't all KCCM women Matrons, though? And I thought that the one of Redmask's guardians actually was a Matron, along with her consort.

[Abyss]

Incorrect. Whatsherfangs was described female, but never as a Matron, and that may make all the difference.

For all we know, she could become a Matron, but the point was made by Deadsmell that immature KC on the shoreline or something were enslaved by Matrons or something. So maybe the hive-mind is not the KC's natural, or necessary, state. Obviously the KN don't think so.

The male was a Kell Hunter, btw, but not otherwise ref'd that i can remember.

- Abyss, is on to something here... going all Sherlock Holmes on yo ass....

[Omras Ghum]

isn't it said (in BH iirc) that the KC che malle are the ones with the hive mentality but the KC na ruk are not? in that same place (iirc when icarium and mappo are exploring that buried sky keep - or when ganath gets killed there... its one of the two spots in the book) it is said that one breed are the ultimate servants of order, the other servants of chaos... or do i mix up hugely again?

iirc the shorttails are the machine builders (build the sky keeps?) and servants of order, the longtails are the servants of chaos and the matron controlled ones... it is said (in moi?) that the matrons could not control the older breed they resurrected (why they did it escapes me atm) - sounds to me as if the shorttails are individuals, thus no hive mentality for them...

[Onrack the breakable]

There is one big point that negates or even reverses most of the points about female KCCM and it is that some god or being in the top rung is lieing.

1) Remember Onrack thinks the emlava is male because of the smell(or taste -yuk) of its piss. Then they kill it and discover it is female.

2) Shurqs third mate is named misery and Rucket says, "misery lies in the details as we will all soon see"

3) Corabb says the waters are bad enough to rot a mans feet, and feather witch, Shetaltha Lore, (and Quick Been says but is not seen to have feet rot) have feet rot. Haha. Feather witch is seen to have feet rot by the Errant but he seems to be another pathalogical lier too. So the only one we see to have rotted feet is Shetaltha Lore so that means "she" is he?

4) also that thing about men being only able to do one thing at a time seems a red herring since some characters like vastly blank can't even count to two and I doubt that has to do with sex. Also the KCCM have at least 3 sexes we know of, the drone is mentioned specifically so for them it may take 3 to sexify or whatever.

My point is until the big liars can be positively identified (Mael, Tehol, Smiles, (and maybe QB) being the big 3 it seems to me) no decision can be made based on what someone says only on what they DO. Bivatt is a proven liar as well as Taralack Veed and some others I can't think of offhand. Lostara Yil-> does that name mean Lost ara Yes I Lied. It seems the names have some significance for some people or beings. But a name is not the person and does not contain the all the history of an identity. Thats absurd. I don't go around thinking of myself as "Joe Smoe" or whatever and I doubt anyone else does either. Even if there are only three people in a room and someone says, "Joe come over here" unless i recognize the voice or face/body then I ignore it and even with recognition I am as likely to reply with, "kiss my arse".

[Abyss]

Omras Ghum;199554 said:

...... or do i mix up hugely again?
...

Briefly, yes.


Pre-RG...

KC: Long-tails. Big honking lizards, different 'male' forms, of which we only saw Kell hunters, and Matrons, apparently female hivemind powerhouses, who USED the Chaos warren (poorly, apparently), along with their own 'Keshan' gravity aspected warren.

KN: Short-tails - According to Kallor in MoI and hints in MT, an older genetic strain, ressurected by the Matrons, who then rebelled and refused to link their power to the Matrons. Tech savvy'ish, based on the 'pod' Iccy and Mappo found, and the one Samar Dev dissected after Karsa skullfncked it. Ganath's dying comments suggested KN were 'order' oriented. The MT prologue suggests the KN crewed the Skykeeps, and Ganath encouters them while investigating her failing Ritual at an apparently crashed Skykeep.

A bunch of Skykeeps are in the Imperial Warren. We don't know why and we don't know what version of KC are on them.

Unclear whether they originate from another world or Wu.

Post-RG...

There are female KC who aren't Matrons.

Matrons may assimilate immature KC when they emerge from the sea and force them into the hive-mind.

There is some link between KC and Eleint.


Most of everything else is speculation.

- Abyss, and now you're up to date.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack the breakable;199592 said:

...

You are so full of ****.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I think that Telorast and Curdle took over for Redmask's guardians. As in occurrence with Edgewalker's plans.


*ducks*

[Flawed]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;199850 said:

I think that Telorast and Curdle took over for Redmask's guardians. As in occurrence with Edgewalker's plans.


*ducks*

Where!?

I think the KChain chappies wouldn't let them take over. I'm sure i remember those two saying they cannot take over someone with a will stronger then their own or just a strong one.

They shirked at attempting Apsalar. I doubt they could flex the mind taking over skills for Bill and Ben the sword wielding men.

Or whatever their names were.

Also Ducks. Or perhaps Hunkers! yes i shall Hunker!

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Flawed;199852 said:

I doubt they could flex the mind taking over skills for Bill and Ben the sword wielding men.

Or whatever their names were.

Thank you for that. That was quite good.

It was just a silly little theory of mine; even slightly believable if we consider that we lose track of the two little dragons in RG. And, if we are working on Bottle being right on the two being dragons, perhaps they possess the strength of will necessary to take over some good old flesh and blood K'Chain's. Apsalar, after all, is an ascendant with terrible skills, and I have a feeling that you don't mess with those types.

[Flawed]

Where is Dassem Ultor?;199862 said:

Thank you for that. That was quite good. .

You are welcome.

Based on them being Dragons you may be right.

I've always wondered what the two of them did to earn such enslavement / death prior to their release.

Probably lost the key to the SD door resulting in .......................................... Oh!

Hunkers once more.

[Mael]

One thing to note:

In RG redmask initially described the "female" KCCM as a Drone that was maturing into a female. This is similar to the method bees and other hive spicies use to reporduce. Some become workers, some defenders and every so often you get a queen for further expansion when the colony requires it.

Another interesting Note :

Redmask led the Awl to thier final battle on the SHORE of an ancient lakebed whose name no one even knows which is strange considdering the depth of knowledge on the Letherii continent about the ancient world due to thier relitive isolation, meaning the name and the lakebed itself was super old.

Remember the shake and thier description of how the KCCM (assumed) "parasites" (for lack of a better term) insulated themselves into everything around the shore and infected thier human hosts and converted thier offspring into monsters waiting for the KCCM matron to claim them. Now dispite the lack of KCCM in the world this appears to be still happening among the shake in the current time leading me to believe that the parasites may in fact be immortal (maybe in a state of perpetual hibernation until a host comes along) for lack of a better term. Those shake who are too mutated were tossed into the sea while those who recieved minor mutations were kept as witches and warlocks. It was also noted that many males were born with stubby or "short" tails.

Could it be possible that the point of the storyline was for redmask to unwittingly lead a menagerie of "hosts" to be infected by the KCCM brood spawn remaining in and around the lake in order for the KCCM female accompanying him to claim them later on in the story? Even though the majority of his Awl and Bivatts Letherii are dead there is now an army of Barghast roaming those shores. Did the arrival of the barghast and thier subsequent infection mark the end of Redmask's usefullness?

[Mael]

:angel:

[Blacksox]

While talking about Kchains and Dragons I have a theory. I think the Otataral dragon is really Tiam.

I believe the whole part about Sichas Ruin parlaying with the Kchain is a reference to some deal between some of the Elient Soletaken and the Kchain.

1.My evidence is that several large Soletaken Elient where invovlved in the crucifion of the OD. I believe these were atleast Rake, Ruin, and Osserc and perhaps Scabbi and others were involved.

2. The OD is imprisoned in the imperial warren which is full of KChain ruins and such. Is it a coincidence it is imprisoned there?

3. In RG it is clealry implied the dragons attacked the and obliterated the KChain in an act of extreme rage. Was this because the KChain had something to do with taking mommy Tiam out?

4.It is stated the KChain are the children of dragons. Did the KChain have a grugde on Tiam for possibly disowning or denying them?

5. Did they somehow change her aspect to otateral to keep her from being able to resurect or maybe that is her natural state?

6. Is this reason the Dragons in SD seem to have lost the will to live and died of despair or disintrest?

Anyway I feel like Tiam is the best candidate for the OD IMO.

[Abyss]

Mael;199886 said:

...Another interesting Note :

Redmask led the Awl to thier final battle on the SHORE of an ancient lakebed whose name no one ...Could it be possible that the point of the storyline was for redmask to unwittingly lead a menagerie of "hosts" to be infected by the KCCM brood spawn remaining in and around the lake in order for the KCCM female accompanying him to claim them later on in the story? Even though the majority of his Awl and Bivatts Letherii are dead there is now an army of Barghast roaming those shores. Did the arrival of the barghast and thier subsequent infection mark the end of Redmask's usefullness?

I absolutely love this theory. Even if it's complete crap, it's brilliant.

Plus it means we have an entire tribe of White Face Bhargast becoming KC hosts, with only Hetan and Tool and maybe the Awl and flexy-sword kids avoiding it because they didn't join in the battle.

- Abyss, wishes i thought of it.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Since when did people get "infected" by the KCCM spores?

It affects the unborn, and they are sometimes BORN with KCCM attributes. That does not mean adult Barghast are suddenly going to sprout scales.

Unless you are suggesting the Barghast will settle down on the coast and birth a generation of KCCM-Barghast hybrids.

Hetan could be their Matron.

[Morgoth]

I wonder whether the aim of the KC was to destroy their ancient enemy and weaken the letherii in the area.

*shrugs*

[Greymane]

When Redmask was killed, wasn't that scene from his POV? That would kind of kill the decoy theory. Personally, I think Redmask was the original Redmask, who was a Letherii that somehow ended up being raised by the Awl.

Actually something just occurred to me - what if Redmask was a Letherii citizen of Shake descent? That might partly explain why the KCCM followed him.