[Marcus]

Actually Rautus the one obsessed with the artifacts mention to Bugg they've dug as far as an old soil layer with primitive items which Mael says is Eres'al.
He then seems to lose himself completely in the memories of that last Eresal family and later Icarium... and is also overcome with grief. Kind of odd for an elder god to really lose himself like that, no?
Plus I've just started first re-read and Rautus in the first chapter describes his obsession with the artifacts as a growing compulsion and out of character.
Either these are side-effect of the machine or SE was just hinting at things to come. Either way I doubt it was broke...

[Dag]

Agraba;189921 said:

I don't know if this was mentioned yet: Some place in Bugg's POV (if none of you buy this, I'll have to dig into RG myself) he mentioned the devices across the city as Eres'al architecture.

Errm... I was just doing some rereading, and... I think I can spare you some digging.... It's on page 172.

It does mention the Eres'al as creators of one of the artifacts, but nothing implies that Icarium was there, building the machine together with Eres. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have this feeling that this machine was not built by Icarium, but rather for him.

Mael says about the machine on pg. 173:
"A central piece is missing, as you suspected, sir. Alas, you will not find it, for it is not physical. The framework that will hold it together is one of energy, not matter. And it has yet to arrive."

[Dawndeath]

So, could the Eres'al have built this machine especially for Icarium, with him as the battery as well? Is Icarium in his corporeal self the right form of energy (the 'for it is not physical' quote makes this a giveaway), or does he have to release the energy first? Maybe by 'slicing open his wrists', like K'rul? But does the machine go into him, or he into the machine?

Why did the Eres'al build it? To stop him from going mental every once in a while? As a reset-button? Was it their idea to build it, or did they do it for someone else (Icarium, or a third party (Nameless Ones?)).

About the Icarium -> CG theory: it really like that one! It would mean that Icarium first becomes god in another realm, though, and several hundred thousands of years ago at that. Some flashback that would make, huh?
A problem with it: if Karsa/Withal/Sandalath/Mael can show up in the Crippled Gods abode, than Icarium should too, and that would be a difficult dialogue to write, even for SE

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Eres'al is the last character I would expect to build anything, let alone a city-sized machine. In every description she's been a child-like almost-human. Not an engineer.

Icarium almost certainly built the machine, and as far as I can tell (which is not far) it was some kind of device to absorb people's memories. Certainly the memories of Rautos, Taxilian and Senior Assessor, and many more. All this talk of time is rampant speculation, what does it even mean to have a "warren of time" or talk about some kind of time equivalent to warrens-as-K'rul's-blood?

Icarium's problem is memory, not time. His devices do seem to be concerned with the measurement of time, but that's because he doesn't remember the passage of the years, not because it's something to do with "time magic."

[Shockwave]

I'm with Dolorous on this one. Icarium is the 'Builder of Devices', and his issue is his memory, not time. The purpose of all his mechanisms were to measure time, so he'd know how long he'd wandered for.

The Eres'al doesn't predate engineering, she predates civilisation. I certainly wouldn't expect such a construct there.

- Shockwave

[Abyss]

The end of the Iccy storyline in RG is VERY vague.

He finds his old mechanism, activates it, bleeds, makes a Krul analogy, it's broken, trashes some real estate, sucks in some memories, and fizzles out.

Poof.

And while i'm sure this wil all eventually turn out to be very terribly significant, my wtf-sense is still tingling.

Bare in mind Krul didn't just make the warrens with his blood. He SHAPED them out of the Holds and/or chaos, using his blood.

The time/memory link is interesting and somewhat problematic - Iccy's been wandering around for all time with no memory, or limited memory...

- Abyss, my head hurts.

[Gem Windcaster]

Abyss;191808 said:

- Abyss, my head hurts.

Indeed. Most of RG felt like someone sucked out what I left of my brainz. Then kicked it.

[Sir Thursday]

Right, here's my guess - the machine is designed to store Icarium's memories. When he realised that he was missing vast chunks of his memories, he designed a machine that would allow him to store his memories so that he can find out what he's forgotten. In order to get it to work though, he has to shed some of his blood to make it accept his memories.

Then when Rautos Hivanar gets crushed, there is an explicit mention of blood running down the his crushed legs. The machine takes this as someone trying to download their memories into it and sucks them all out, but (perhaps because Hivanar isn't an immortal Jhag, perhaps because there's a default in the machine) instead of merely copying his memories, it sucks them out of him.

Seems to make sense to me, and also seems a bit simpler than these theories about transportation in time etc. What do you guys think?

Sir Thursday

[Abyss]

I'm not back to this on the reread yet, but does anyone think there was a link between Iccy's activating the machines and Karsa using the souls to power a channel back to the CG?

- Abyss, grasping for souls, i mean 'straws'.

[polishgenius]

No, there wasn't. If there was it was very well hidden, but I really don't think so.

It was Ublala's and the old guy's ceremony that powered Karsa's thingy.

[Agraba]

Okay, of course there's the problem of Eres being ape-like and way before humans in the evolutionary chain, but Bugg said that this is Eres'al construct. Since that particular Eres'al that we know is a walker of time, I believe she helped Icarium by investing the sorcery he needed into that machine. Thus he is still the engineer, but she is the sorceress, and we very well know that that fits her.

Also, I think recovering all of Icarium's memories is just the first half of its purpose. Why would SE give that device its gigantic city-sized spider machine look?

Question is, what is the function of such a gigantic device? A function so big as to be compared with things done by K'rul.

[Lister of Smeg]

I'm on a reread at the moment, and found a rather interesting quote from Kettle (she's full of those):

Quote

They said the vast wheel is about to turn, one last time, before it closes. It closes, because it has to, because that's how he made it. To tell him all he needs to know. To tell him the truth.

This has to be referring to Icarium, right? The last two lines confirms for me that the machine is designed to restore his memories. And the first line is interesting too. From what I remember, the machine in Letheras isn't described as a wheel. But in MT, Trull crosses a massive wheel that is used as a bridge, which was a construct of Icarium. So my theory is that the two machines are linked, and will somehow restore all of Icarium's memories and let him know his whole history.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Maybe that's the tragedy that we'll find out about, Iccy was about to cure himself but he died too soon.

Or, more likely in my opinion, he'll re-spawn whent he wheel turns, being the major reincarnation SE's talked about, and save the world or something by defeating the CG.

[Abyss]

He's SO not dead. He's just resting.

- Abyss, "Save the Jhag, save the world"

[Flawed]

From the reference to Iccy opening up his Veins like Krul. This insinuated to me that Iccy was becoming something else. A progression to God status of some kind. Memory or time aspected as was he wont.

The taking of memories, the whole time concept he has always ridden and the reference to Krul all seem to point in that direction.

Although the machine was broken. The one that would of healed him or returned his memories it pinched everyone else's instead. So he is either going to show up with muti personalities and even more confused or he will be a new god of some kind. He certainly has the worshipper's and power.

It would be confusing for him though.

" Think ill wear the dress with the trousers on my hat while i eat my cattle prod down the road whilst rowing and counting coin today " said Iccy in a befuddled manner. " i think ill call myself Taxseniccydorisrattyfredrick today. Isn't that right Susan? "

[Abyss]

..and we STILL don't know what the Eres did to him!

- Abyss, argh.

[tiam]

Lister of Smeg;193947 said:

I'm on a reread at the moment, and found a rather interesting quote from Kettle (she's full of those):



This has to be referring to Icarium, right? The last two lines confirms for me that the machine is designed to restore his memories. And the first line is interesting too. From what I remember, the machine in Letheras isn't described as a wheel. But in MT, Trull crosses a massive wheel that is used as a bridge, which was a construct of Icarium. So my theory is that the two machines are linked, and will somehow restore all of Icarium's memories and let him know his whole history.

Yeh his Temporal maps. There on every continent so i have a theory that each one will draw in memories for him

[Abyss]

Interesting - because if the device that was supposed to restore his memories is broken... (and sucking up the memories of random victims for good measure) what will it do to him instead...

- Abyss, hopes Mappo has a bigger club.

[Skywalker]

Lister of Smeg;193947 said:

I'm on a reread at the moment, and found a rather interesting quote from Kettle (she's full of those):

They said the vast wheel is about to turn, one last time, before it closes. It closes, because it has to, because that's how he made it. To tell him all he needs to know. To tell him the truth.

This has to be referring to Icarium, right? The last two lines confirms for me that the machine is designed to restore his memories. And the first line is interesting too. From what I remember, the machine in Letheras isn't described as a wheel. But in MT, Trull crosses a massive wheel that is used as a bridge, which was a construct of Icarium. So my theory is that the two machines are linked, and will somehow restore all of Icarium's memories and let him know his whole history.

Nice find... Could the closing of Iccy's wheel have anything to do with the "Seventh Closure" we heard so much about in MT? Or was that different?

I know in MT at some point its mentioned that the closure happened the day Rhulad took the throne... but Kettle's mention of closing reminded me of the Closure.

[caladanbrood]

Maybe they were a few years early, and the Closure actually happened in RG, when Tehol became emperor;)