[Onrack the breakable]

I think its premature to assume that Menandore is actually dead. I think her apparent "death" is part of her plot with Hood and ST and I don't mean by reviving her corpse (or pieces thereof either). Remember when Menandore meets with Errant, then Hood and ST? She seems to be very mental with plan within plots, etc even to the extent of how she acts, and of her so called "refuge". I don't think you can take anything about her at face value. And the mention of heads being removed, and her plucking the head of a flower that bleeds profusely, then agreeing to some plot with Shadowthrone makes me wonder. Remember St's specialty is also illusions as he did with the "destroyed" throne of shadow. It seems more logical that the dead "Menandore dragon" was nothing but part of the trap for her 2 sisters. The stone that QB gives her and other things all seem to indicate plot within plots. Of course Hedge and his cussers and possibly Errants disgruntlement its possible that Menandore got blasted into tiny pieces regardless but I don't think so.

It also may explain how all 3 sisters were "pwned" so easily by a mortal wizard and a ghost. Not saying that QB isn't more powerful than he lets on but that even if QB's stone was nothing more than a tracker it allowed him to spear those dragons like fish in a barrel.

I don't know, its just that even with Menandores head getting bit off is not something I would count as fact, not with Shadowthrones illusions anywhere around.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Onrack the breakable;187062 said:

I think its premature to assume that Menandore is actually dead. I think her apparent "death" is part of her plot with Hood and ST and I don't mean by reviving her corpse (or pieces thereof either). Remember when Menandore meets with Errant, then Hood and ST? She seems to be very mental with plan within plots, etc even to the extent of how she acts, and of her so called "refuge". I don't think you can take anything about her at face value. And the mention of heads being removed, and her plucking the head of a flower that bleeds profusely, then agreeing to some plot with Shadowthrone makes me wonder. Remember St's specialty is also illusions as he did with the "destroyed" throne of shadow. It seems more logical that the dead "Menandore dragon" was nothing but part of the trap for her 2 sisters. The stone that QB gives her and other things all seem to indicate plot within plots. Of course Hedge and his cussers and possibly Errants disgruntlement its possible that Menandore got blasted into tiny pieces regardless but I don't think so.

It also may explain how all 3 sisters were "pwned" so easily by a mortal wizard and a ghost. Not saying that QB isn't more powerful than he lets on but that even if QB's stone was nothing more than a tracker it allowed him to spear those dragons like fish in a barrel.

I don't know, its just that even with Menandores head getting bit off is not something I would count as fact, not with Shadowthrones illusions anywhere around.

It was Shadowthrone (well, Cotillion, but that's about the same) that sent Quick Ben there in the first place. I don't see why he would be supporting both sides of a battle. And I think Sheltatha Lore would've known if she was biting off the head of an illusion.

[Gem Windcaster]

Dolorous Menhir;187089 said:

It was Shadowthrone (well, Cotillion, but that's about the same) that sent Quick Ben there in the first place. I don't see why he would be supporting both sides of a battle. And I think Sheltatha Lore would've known if she was biting off the head of an illusion.

I agree, it is more likely that ST doublecrossed poor Menandore. Although, I have to admit I think the theory of ST getting Quick Ben in trouble is an interesting one.

[tiam]

What was the point of that meeting? im in a reread now but still in overoad but i still cant see what the point was of them meeting

[Agraba]

Hood wasn't a party, just witness. Shadowthrone helped Menandore by sending QB Trull and Onrack, because Menandore made it clear that she wants Silchas alive so he can kill Scabandari (which for obvious reasons would benefit ST). However, it was a big twist to us when Menandore spoke to her sisters and flew with them, because all she indicated to us throughout was that she'd directly oppose her sisters, so she was the one who betrayed, not Shadowthrone. But after the skirmish, Sheltatha Lore made it clear to us that she planned on killing Menandore afterwards, because she still had pent up rage about being imprisoned, but since they didn't get a chance for an "afterwards", she used her last breath to deliver pain on Menandore.

[Onrack the breakable]

No, there was a meeting and a SILENT AGREEMENT with Hood. Especially note the layers of meaning when ST says something like, "we three fell creatures have met, agreed on very little, and concluded that our previous impressions of each other were far too...generous(that pause may be indicating the opposite), but we have agreed on the one point Hood wanted to address which is why he is so ecstatic."

Then ST says to Menandore, "your sisters want to kill you, what a horrible family. Want my help?" Menandore says like, "why, I just told the Errant to shove it?" and ST replies, "my help is of another order entirely, elder gods think too slow. They then agree on an exchange of services. ST gets use of a Starvald Demelain gate, while the nature of Menandores "help" is somehow understood without any words specificly addressing it. Namely Trull, Onrack, Hedge and QB. And that ST didn't feel the need to give them even the vaguest of orders or commands. Simply in reply reading Cotillion's mind and saying, "it is as Cotillion believes, the chickens died of grief".

I believe the services were that ST fake her death with his illusions (which can easily fool a god). However, now I wonder if any of the sisters died at all. Because when Shetaltha and Sekul met, Shet went on and on about how they had to plan very carefully and especially have a way to save their own arses when they get kicked soundly.

What is obvious whether you agree with me about that or not is there are layers on layers here. Even without using much outright power at all, ST can dance around the gods, elder gods, and dragons. I think the Shadow rulers are closer tied to the Lords of War than anyone expects and the gods in that grouping think on the run, and never stop running (and thinking). Meaning, like QB said the CG would be way out of his league sticking an oar in there. I think the CG has already been co-opted by the Lords of War. Not with outright battle so much as smarts and surprisingly kindness. (I may be imagining all that too reading too much sentimentality into all my crazy theories)

I don't think there is really much that could oppose them (the Lords of War) except for the tragedies of existence of which the Tog and Fanderay tragedy seem to have been just the shallowest layer, underneath which we begin to see glimpses of countless layers far more profound. Compared to that, the Chained/crippled god is a mere stubbed toe. And by the end of the book even he realizes it.

[BridgeBurner]

Sorry to only address this point, since the details of the meeting aren't that clear to me yet. I'll look at it in my reread.

Onrack the breakable;188439 said:

They then agree on an exchange of services. ST gets use of a Starvald Demelain gate, while the nature of Menandores "help" is somehow understood without any words specificly addressing it. Namely Trull, Onrack, Hedge and QB.

I didn't have the impression Hedge was part of the bargain. I know he started out from Hood's undercellar into the realm of the Throne of Ice, but it was Paran who brought Hedge at the start of that journey, and not Hood (and for the record, that was before Hood wanted a boon from Paran).

So what benefits Hood in this scheme? Probably the possible Imass' souls, so he wouldn't interfere.

If, as I think, Hedge is an unexpected factor in all this, it may have changed the expectations. Though honestly I forgot if he got to throw a cusser at any of the three sisters...

[Dolorous Menhir]

It was a cusser from Hedge that finished Sheltatha Lore. That was crying out for a good one-liner. It sounds stupid, but I just imagine Hedge yelling "fatality!"

[BridgeBurner]

Yeah. Speaking of such comments, I didn't really appreciate the 'fucking dragon!' comment by Fiddler later on, in Letheras.

OTOH, Bottle's thought 'Allow us to introduce ourselves...' when looking at Ruin flying off totally hit the mark, in my view.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The real-world profanity did jar. It's been in the earlier books a bit, but got ramped up a lot in this one. Personally, it kind of knocks me out of the fantasy story when they say things like that.

[MajorMajor]

As far as I'm concerned swearing is as part of language as everything else. What I hate is when a writer make up there own. SE manages to do it well but a lot don't. I find it jarring when authors intentionally steer away from using any kind of swear word. When I'm reading a passage where a character is in a rage, screaming this and that at someone and the strongest word they come out with is damn, that's what I find jarring.

[tiam]

I prefer a bit of real language now and again but some of the phrases

the world wants me to be a soldier.
The world can go FUCK itself

perfectly reasonable just far too Steven Seagul for me as was Fiddlers comment about the dragon

[Onrack the breakable]

I like the swearing, but that "fucking dragon" part did seem to jar a bit. I dunno, "goddam dragon" or something not even requiring profanity.

I do not mind swearing at all if it doesn't jar too much, but I think its as funny when Captain Shurq the pirate queen reprimands her first mate for profanity. The fact that he still mentions "hoods butcrack" ,etc, etc is also funny. "How many times must I tell you, there is no profanity on my ship" or something like that. A pirate ship, captained by an undead theif and occasional whore (although mostly she does it for free and to feed a certain hunger).

Now, I'm wondering if it even matters if the sisters are dead at all? Remember these are soultaken who are of approximate the same caliber of Anamander Rake, Silchas Ruin, and Scabandari. Their spirits would still be of fell power and if lached onto a body of some sort, possible not too far dimished.

One especially that I suspect is Shetaltha, remember she has brown teeth and rotten feet and skin like an t'lan imass. She seemed to take the brown teeth as her "trademark". Amusing since it seems to me, most pretty immortal queens would rather be gangraped by monkeys than have something so unsightly as brown teeth and rotten feet. But then before Feather Which is killed we see her flash her brown teeth and show rotten feet. Maybe totally unrelated but still to wonder. IS Shetaltha still in the game even if dead? And perhaps maybe like Shurq actually enjoys the game more being "dead" anyway.

I still think there was a plot and agreement. Silent agreement, the best kind or something like that. Otherwise what was the point of the meeting? Maybe just entertainment but I don't think so. Not saying that the entire main point of the plot (if one existed) was entertainment, even if entertainment of a prankish and maybe even vicious sort that some people not in on the plot would not find funny in the least. See what I'm saying here?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but thats one of the things I like about SE's writing is you can read so many layers of meaning whether he intended it that way or not. I think too many people just skim the surface and miss 99% of his writing. I can't believe how much most people miss. Is Anamander Rake a Tiste ande? Whats the difference between a K'chain (KCCM) long tale and a KCCM short tale? Jeezus friken a dead lizard. Whats up with that?

[Dragnipurake]

I think all three sisters are dead for good. the ritual is no longer in place, and was never in place in that realm. so their souls should have gone through Hood's gate. That pocket Imass realm was made or preserved by Gothos but there is no mention of souls being held in stasis.