[ch'arlz]

Omras Ghum;197349 said:

I think what made Beak that overly powerful was his unique perception of the warrens (candles and all that)... face it, Beak is quite the simpleton in many ways and thus able to pull things of in ways other (read: more educated) mages could never achieve because their perception of magic (warrens, most mages only being able to access one or two warrens etc.) prohibits them from interweaving magic as Beak (and QB, but he has multiple souls...) did it. He just lighted his candles...

@Bottle: this isn't intended as an argument or an attempt to change your mind - if you weren't happy with the Beak storyline, sobeit.

I was. Sometimes I try to imagine how SE thinks when he's writing, and I can imagine him saying "ok, what's another way that humans could develop sorcerous power... hmmm, how 'bout a mostly silent squad mage who was severely abused as a child and suffered the trauma of seeing the brother he loved hang himself and was too weak to save him, hmmm, what could I do with that?" This was no deus ex machina, that Beak has more than usual powers is explicit throughout the storyline; it's only the extent of his powers that's in question and whether, this time, he'll be able to save those he loves against the threat of the Lether sorcerors. It could have gone either way, but in and of itself it's one of my favorite storylines. And I do suspect that we'll see ramifications from it to come.

Who knew Hood had a soft spot for kids?

[Bottle]

That's a nice way at looking at it, I do think Beak was a novel concept as a character, and he was well written. Maybe I can be too harsh on SE as for me if he had thought of Beak's character earlier on, I would have been happy. And so In certain ways, I'm really just having a go at the old SE for not thinking of a great character earlier. Which is obviously very harsh on my part.

Though I will stand by my opinion. Maybe if Beak had been integrated into other elements of the plot a bit more, it wouldn't have seemed so bad (in my eyes). But I have no idea how SE could have done that. I just think that although Beak is well written, it's a beautiful façade for a weak plot device.

My two cents (:

[QuickTidal]

I loved Beak. I love that SE could introduce me to a character so completely, and then when he gave his life to save everyone....I was beyond upset. Not quite as bad as I was when Itkovian died in MOI, but kinda close. Self sacrifice is always that way though isn't it.

I liked the use of the term "candles".

Like when Faradan Sort (after his death) says, under her breath, "Not a candle left to burn then"...oh jesus I almost lost it.


BTW, was his brother/family anyone important?

[Lancelot]

Kichiro;197553 said:

Maybe he'll return as Magi of High House Death? That position is still vacant isn't it?

Talamandas the sticksnare was refered to as magi of HHD by QB...so no.

[ch'arlz]

QuickTidal;197734 said:

BTW, was his brother/family anyone important?

I believe they were poor farmers and a dysfunctional family.

[panic]

ch said:

I believe they were poor farmers and a dysfunctional family.

They couldn't have been poor to afford 12 tutors for beak.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Bottle;197733 said:

That's a nice way at looking at it, I do think Beak was a novel concept as a character, and he was well written. Maybe I can be too harsh on SE as for me if he had thought of Beak's character earlier on, I would have been happy. And so In certain ways, I'm really just having a go at the old SE for not thinking of a great character earlier. Which is obviously very harsh on my part.

Original?

Beak = Forrest Gump

[Abyss]

Lancelot;197742 said:

Talamandas the sticksnare was refered to as magi of HHD by QB...so no.

You're assuming QB got it right. Maybe he was getting the right idea, but the wrong focus.

@charlz - Hood's soft spot for kids makes sense if we accept that the Jaghut on the Throne hedge saw was indeed him.

@QTidal - totally, that bit got me too.

@Dol'Men re Gump - i disagree. Totally different characters with one point - their mental retardation - in common. Ok, two if you count that they both enlisted in the army.

- Abyss, notes momma always said life was like a box of Moranth munitions...

[Bottle]

Beak was also damn good at ping pong, I think Balm mentions it at some point IIRC.

Edit: Woot! *Bottle begins a 100th post dance*

[Kichiro]

I don't know about his mental capacity though. I got the impression at times that he had convinced himself that he was stupid because of the mental abuse by his mom. And wasn't it mentioned that the warren of Mockra required quite some mental capacity and he extensively uses it throughout the book.

Think it was mentioned to Seren Pedac.

[panic]

Kichiro, I also thought that he might be smarter than he realized but the abuse is what "crippled" his mind.

[Morgoth]

panic;197862 said:

Kichiro, I also thought that he might be smarter than he realized but the abuse is what "crippled" his mind.

The captain he liked so much mentioned how he convinced himself he was stupid again

[Mortal Sword]

I think the thing with anything, especially learning, is when you dont know better.... you can achieve alot more. So the mages that learn through structure and study are more bound to laws and following them.

Out of the box thinkers like Quick are an exception... they tend to display cleverness and ensure the contrictions of text book learning.

Sinn came to power through trauma and pain and circumstance...... call it a display of extreme strength and adrenaline!

Bottle is a hodegpodge of this and that, learning a lil here and a little there, and hes open because he came from a odd background.

With Beak.... all his teachers were showen too him, and yet once again... like Bottle he started learning through a witch as well.....

Maybe I am wrong but it seems that this is the case. Insanity will open you to extremes, blind emotion, rage and terror even can open you to insane feats of strength... why not magery!

[Mael]

panic;197774 said:

They couldn't have been poor to afford 12 tutors for beak.

Beak's "tutors" weren't official paid teachers. I believe he mentions one was a stable hand. It seems to me (and i believe it is alluded to a few times) that most of beaks teachers were mostly various witches and other casters that were involved in his everyday life that saw potential in Beak and began teaching him.

As for Beak being mentally handicapped, far from it. It appears that Beak had the latent ability to read into people's souls and this effected him emotionally and mentally (the trauma from killing his family probably didn't help but he was already a bit messed up at that point).

At one point he spoke about how he would get nervous and "babbled" when talking to wizards in particular and when he was finished they would often be in tears and give him a big hug afterwards or just stare at him dumbfounded. These are the type of reactions that made beak feel "Stupid".

Although i would hardly considder him stupid or retarded, a savant would probably be a better word to discribe Beak. Imagine what it would be like if you could read a person's soul and then just regurgitated everything you read back them like it was spoken to you in a conversation by that person. Laying out thier deepest fears, loves, secrets...things that the person being read may not even be aware of or had long forgotten. You would be pretty screwed up too.

[Jorram]

I've had my quick read through these, what, 8 pages? And no one seems to be asking where did Beak know all he knew, after all? I'm fine with natural magical talents and intricate understanding of Warrens, implausible as it is for a next-to-retard such as Beak. But him knowing stuff like that for the FA/TL Justice Wars was REALLY out of place. It has nothing to do with handling Warrens and magic. WHERE did he know it from?

One thing I've come to feel disappointed about in TMBOTF is how once the reader is made familiar with facts introduced as secret, hidden and forgotten, by the next book suddenly everybody knows about it. It sucks

[Mr.Warren]

some where someone mentioned Beak being like a magic savant [i might have been me?, not that i'm pulling my own chain]

magic must be another form of creativity, or some such, its the way i see it, being a musical savant, or magical savant, although its a little strange to think of autistic mages out there.

being crazy and being creative comes from the same part of the brain sort of, often going hand in hand, at any point have you seen an all together sane mage in any of the books?

[Called-by-the-Voices]

First of all: congrats, people.. I actually READ all the 8 pages.. Nice to see some really great debating and conversation...

My 2 cents: Well, I'm gonna have to ga sides with Abyss on this one (Gods help me) cuz I really really liked Beak... Maybe cuz he reminded me somewhat of Itkovian. And the whole tragic childhood/background plot really got me...
For instance, that part when he refuses Cpt Sort's orders to go to sleep.. and then thinks "It's not that I don't love you Captain, cause I do, and I'd do anything for you, but I can't let go..." (or something like that) is one of the most beautiflu parts... I find their romance far more real and touching then the silly Trull/Seren, Whiskeyjack/Korlat romances.. Granted, there WAS NO romance... but it really felt real. And heartbraking....

As for Beak being a plot tool... Well, as I said, I'm with Abyss on this one--- c'mon guys... There was heavy foreshadowing of Beak's role in all of this.. You cannot say he's the DEM for the problem of Hold magic, cause he just isn't--- As someone said, if Steve didn't want marines to get Ranalled, he could've just avoided the conflict with the mages on some other way...

Although Bottle's teory about many book threats and 1 book threats is interesting and really good, you can't claim BEak's just a plot character cauze he showed up in RG.
Come to think about it, he's a one-book-character, but I know more about him (and like him more) then many more book characters (Smiles, Koryk, Hannan Mosag, Seren Pedac, and tons more) So that teory just doesn't stand... I really enjoyed the story arc of the marines.. And I didn't feel disappointed when BEak did ehat he did...
And,just to say... His death was probably, after Itko's, the most emotional tragic death in the series...

That line when he says to Hood: "I'm stronger now, I can save him, can't I?" just got me streaming in tears..
Love, Beak

[Shurque's biatch]

Abyss;197083 said:

(Btw, Deux ex machina means ("god is a machine"), loosely, a mighty being intrudes into events out of absolute nowhere to bump the story because no other device was available or the author couldn't come up with one -ie: a random KN sykeep drops out of the sky and squishes all the mages before they could cast their ritual. SE wrote Beak into the story as a whole. He was a part of it and meant to be. That's typically called a 'plot', not deus ex machina.)

Sorry to most humbly correct you, but Deus Ex Machina means god out of a machine.

The example I often use is the antics of Elric. Every time he gets in trouble, mundane or arcane, some god or elemental jumps out of the bushes and halls him to safety.

As far as Beak goes, I don't find the plotline any more improbable or artificial than anything else in Wu.

Plus, I have to agree with many of the previous comments, the story was awsome and heartbreaking. Equal to or sadder then Itkovian.

Didn't have the emotional tug, but as far as tradgedy goes the Toc/Tool story is right on par with Beak. Could be that they were so close together in the book, but that got me too.

[Aptorian]

Jorram;208278 said:

I've had my quick read through these, what, 8 pages? And no one seems to be asking where did Beak know all he knew, after all? I'm fine with natural magical talents and intricate understanding of Warrens, implausible as it is for a next-to-retard such as Beak. But him knowing stuff like that for the FA/TL Justice Wars was REALLY out of place. It has nothing to do with handling Warrens and magic. WHERE did he know it from?

One thing I've come to feel disappointed about in TMBOTF is how once the reader is made familiar with facts introduced as secret, hidden and forgotten, by the next book suddenly everybody knows about it. It sucks

It isn't that unbelievable. First of there's a lot of stuff we don't know about Beak, we don't know all the people he's met and what he's learned from or sucked out of them during his, what... 30 year life time?

Look at Bottle, the guy knows stuff about holds, gods, the Eres, spirits, and probably even more that he shouldn't know about. I doubt his witch grandmother told him all that.

It sort of like mages, the good ones or the ones that don't know to keep their noses to themselves, just pick up on stuff. In SE's world it's all there layers and layers of history ready to be picked up by anyone if they just have the nose or eyes for it... ANd that's not a good thing, Heboric certainly didn't appreciate it.

[Seed]

We know memories can have such a lingering presence that they can be a place unto themselves out amongst the warrens, and also given that beak had such a powerful link to mokra may explain why he knew so much. The potential is there for mokra to know everything that everyone currently existing on wu knows.

-Seed ...had his library card to the akashic records revoked due to overdue fees