[Illuyankas]

Assuming that the souls he has came from people with only one warren available each. There might be an argument that every mage is born capable of one warren, and can use others from an outside source - gods for Brood's Tennes, Tiam's blood for SD, the souls for Quick, and so forth. But, I'm sure there are people with multiple warrens and no easily discernable source for them, only I can't remember any right now.

[Ashamanic2]

polishgenius;186432 said:

They weren't however obviously introduced purely to deal with an otherwise insurmountable problem - namely here, the Letherii sorcery.

Yes, but the Letheri sorcery was only unsurmountable because beak was there to surmount it

[Kurt Montandon]

Illuyankas;186659 said:

Assuming that the souls he has came from people with only one warren available each. There might be an argument that every mage is born capable of one warren, and can use others from an outside source - gods for Brood's Tennes, Tiam's blood for SD, the souls for Quick, and so forth. But, I'm sure there are people with multiple warrens and no easily discernable source for them, only I can't remember any right now.

Bottle seems to be able to dabble with multiple warrens. There doesn't seem to be any hard and fast rule involved - I'd imagine it's more a matter of someone who wants to spend their life getting good at a warren not really having the time to do more than just dabble a bit in others. The more time you spend learning others, the more your skills in a preferred warren suffer. For mortals, anyways - Ascendants probably get so good at one, they just don't particular care to try others, except as necessity dictates.

I'd imagine most healing mages make a point of learning something apart from Denul. Deadsmell, for example, probably uses both Denul and Hood, as just Hood by itself wouldn't suffice for healing. And Iskaral Pust is proficient in Meanas (it's not a gift from Shadowthrone), but also can use High Denul, as he was preparing to do with Mappo. And keep in mind that often, when we see reference to illusions, the mages in question are using combinations of Mockra, Thyr, and Meanas. I'm sure there's a number of references to that in RG with the marine squad mages, and maybe even a few in the other books.

[BridgeBurner]

Illuyankas;186659 said:

Assuming that the souls he has came from people with only one warren available each. There might be an argument that every mage is born capable of one warren, and can use others from an outside source - gods for Brood's Tennes, Tiam's blood for SD, the souls for Quick, and so forth. But, I'm sure there are people with multiple warrens and no easily discernable source for them, only I can't remember any right now.

I was assuming that

However, I'm also assuming that the mages who gave up their souls to QB were adult, knowing they were about to die.

Sinn and Beak are/were not adults. Not emotionally in any case.

[Obdigore]

BridgeBurner;186665 said:

I was assuming that

However, I'm also assuming that the mages who gave up their souls to QB were adult, knowing they were about to die.

Sinn and Beak are/were not adults. Not emotionally in any case.

Again, for all we know, a couple of those souls had access to multiple warrens. And perhaps each soul knew something different about each warren it had access too.

Or maybe warrens are like a puzzle, and since QB has access to 12+, he can see the picture clearer, and is therefore better able to utilize, than most other magic users.

Oh, and DM, I thought hairlock's insanity came from the fact that he was starting to understand chaos, and with that understanding he was better able to utilize the powers of that warren (or is chaos everything that is not organized into a warren)?

[BridgeBurner]

Obdigore;186676 said:

Again, for all we know, a couple of those souls had access to multiple warrens. And perhaps each soul knew something different about each warren it had access too.

True. But those mages weren't abused in childhood, as far as we know. What I really mean here, is that both Beak and Sinn have been abused in childhood. Sinn hid into her own mind and learned warrens on instinct, Beak was abused too, but got 12 tutors who gave him the only real respite he could have.

Do you think the same went for the mages fleeing into Raraku with QB? Those were battle tested mages, who fled after having lost a campaign...

[fan_83]

i think that how much one can learn about warrens depend on afflication and natural affinity..

some individuals would be very good at one and crap at others while there may be others who has the potential to learn otehr warren..

but what is definitely true in my opinion, is that no matter of ones afflication, one can learn other warren if one is chosen by the ruler of the warren...

[Obdigore]

BridgeBurner;186682 said:

Do you think the same went for the mages fleeing into Raraku with QB? Those were battle tested mages, who fled after having lost a campaign...

Yes, battle tested, handpicked, 12 of the strongest mages in the Seven Cities, if I remember correctly. Do you really think each one only had a small amount of power?

Imagine, a Cabal of 12 mages (like in Daru), with one will, one hand, to guide all their powers? They voluntarily gave up their lives, their knowledge, their very souls, because of something they saw in QB. Don't even try to tell me hes not strong. His only problem was using all that power at the same time, and it appears the fight with Iccy snaped something loose. He can now.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Obdigore;186714 said:

Yes, battle tested, handpicked, 12 of the strongest mages in the Seven Cities, if I remember correctly. Do you really think each one only had a small amount of power?

Imagine, a Cabal of 12 mages (like in Daru), with one will, one hand, to guide all their powers? They voluntarily gave up their lives, their knowledge, their very souls, because of something they saw in QB. Don't even try to tell me hes not strong. His only problem was using all that power at the same time, and it appears the fight with Iccy snaped something loose. He can now.

They gave their souls to QB because the alternative was dying at the hands of the Malazans. The cadre didn't even fight, they just ran away from the city they were supposed to defend. Sure, QB managed to convince them to go to the extreme that they did, but they were only forced to that extreme in the first place because they weren't willing to fight.

[buddhacat]

Dolorous Menhir;186716 said:

They gave their souls to QB because the alternative was dying at the hands of the Malazans. The cadre didn't even fight, they just ran away from the city they were supposed to defend. Sure, QB managed to convince them to go to the extreme that they did, but they were only forced to that extreme in the first place because they weren't willing to fight.

I doubt they all decided to become a part of QB at the same time ... there must have been cliques and mini-alliances and so on.

I think it was Survivor: Raraku, and everyone except QB was voted off.

[Obdigore]

buddhacat;186727 said:

I doubt they all decided to become a part of QB at the same time ... there must have been cliques and mini-alliances and so on.

I think it was Survivor: Raraku, and everyone except QB was voted off.

It was. as each person collapsed, he aproached them, and they all apparently agreed.

[BridgeBurner]

Obdigore;186728 said:

It was. as each person collapsed, he aproached them, and they all apparently agreed.

I almost replied. Until I saw your baiting

[Dark Mac]

Apparently, every squad mage in the Bonehunters learns to use Mockra. The impression I get is that most mages have a natural gift for certain warrens, and can use other warrens as well, but not with nearly as much proficiency.

[Onrack the breakable]

After my fourth read thru I have totally changed my stance about Beak. Of course my main problem is the more times I read a book the more I read into it based on the most a host of obscure references that probably weren't intended as more than mere filler material.

I now believe Beak was actually in the end acting as almost an avatar for Hood and that in itself explains the awesome extent of his powers. When his "powers" started to really kick in, especially the last few days when all his candles were lit and could not, just could not be put back out, he said alot of things in "oracular" mode like a mouthpiece of a god or something.

The most weighty evidence against this is of course (aside from the lack of any definitive evidence 'for' it) the simple fact that his magics only resulted in only the death of a single willing "sacrifice" while preventing the deaths of about 900 or so. That doesn't seem like something Hood would do on first consideration, except Hood is known as being somewhat patient and thus knows the Bonehunters will be comming to him soon anyway (their soldiers after all).

The first few readthrus I was really into the action too much and sort of brushed over Beak, but the more times I read it the more poignant it became, until I was in tears.

In conclusion, I am perfectly happy with the way Beak was written and it must be noted also that many documented historical heroes were not exactly mental giants. In the same situation, I don't think QB would be able to pull off such a rescue because being smart, would not let loose in such a way that there was absolutely NO CHANCE at all of survival for himself.

I may be wrong there, but thats the way I see it.

[Illuyankas]

I have to say, I think you're forgetting the 'always an even exchange' rule - and Bottle shows that the Bonehunters follow it too, by thinking that maybe sacrificing a natural High Mage for a bunch of marines wasn't one.

[Onrack the breakable]

Illuyankas;186897 said:

I have to say, I think you're forgetting the 'always an even exchange' rule - and Bottle shows that the Bonehunters follow it too, by thinking that maybe sacrificing a natural High Mage for a bunch of marines wasn't one.

He was a natural high mage with the intelligence of a 5 year old child or less. The real tragedy was that I suspect his mental retardation was due to physical abuse given by his parents. But even if he was born retarded, the beatings were still just as tragic. He simply did not have the intelligence to be a high mage of any sort without someone always at his side like Captain Faradan Sort. Even then it was only a matter of time till he did something catastrophic to himself and those around him. He could not have been used as a high mage for any more than a few days at most without that risk becomming extreme. As Hood said, "having a crippled/simple mind is no gift".

I admit my initial disgruntlement because I was expecting a huge vicious battle and felt cheated, so it took a few more read thrus to really appreciate Beaks story. And it is well worth it, I think.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Just as a side note, would Beak's show of power indicate him as one of the most powerful mages we've seen?

QB couldnt neutralize the Edur/Letherii magic on the ships without the help of the Eres and Bottle, Kuru Qan could only match Hanan Mossag (one mage, even if hugely powerful), and even Sinn seemed a bit wary of Beak.

He singlehandedly destroyed a ritual woven over the course of a weak by the 7 top Letherii mages. I know they were only top because of casualties and it says they werent a match for Kuru Qan, but still- a ritual 7 days int he making creating sorcery of that amount.

So if Beak hadnt of died, and had been educated into undertamding how and when to use his magic tactically, do you think he could have become the most powerful magic user on Wu?

[tiam]

possible but i think he was only able to use that power because of his death. If QB died (as he nearly did in BH) he could likely match it.

It seemed he was a natural talent as he had learnt Tellan aswell as the younger warrens. If possibly educated than yes he could have. But defying that ritual was an all or nothing situation of you ask me

[kkyyyssss]

thelomen, you re coming back with arguments that were already countered earlier in the thread... they had been preparing for 7 days but it wasnt a surprise to beak either... he knew something was going to happen well in advance as can be deduced by MANY things he said in earlier conversations and well before reaching the battle he was saying stuff like it was too late for him now, all his candles were lit... so it s not as if he single handly, in an instant, counter a massive ritual... to me it feels like he had been amassing and workiing with the power he would need to counter it for a long time.

[mmdw45]

Blacksox;186377 said:

Their are a great many things in RG I found over the top like how Quich Ben who a few books ago did not even have enough raw power to even be considered a combat mage.

That was Picker's opinion of Quick Ben ("never seen him openly let loose", "High Fist, you unsheathed the wrong weapon for this fight") about ten pages before we saw Quick Ben lay waste to the whole Pannion mage cadre. Picker was wrong, wrong, wrong.

QB doesn't slug it out with other mages--his combat style is at least as much aikido as karate, he prefers to deflect their "waves of power" back onto their own armies. But even in MoI he showed with the CG, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach that he *could* unleash power of his own, and with him burying an army of Pannions under a mountainside it wasn't at all clear that the "waves of power" deal is more effective than illusions + shadow wraiths + rockslides + magical aikido. After RG it's clear that QB is a power to be reckoned with on the battlefield.

That's not to say he couldn't easily bite the dust any moment now. Luck as much as skill determines who lives and who dies in Wu; there's a reason ascendants are loathe to invite convergence. Hood didn't want to fight the T'lan Imass Bonecasters in MoI...

-Max