[Skywalker]

Hey guys... long time lurker, first time poster... Yada Yada.

I've been re-reading the series as I wait for my Amaon.co.uk order to ship, and realized Squint (archer that killed Coltaine) cannot be Toc the Elder in exile - Duiker saw him and didn't recognize him...

[Abyss]

Sky' makes a good, point, but the situation was rather... stressed. Plus, do we know that Duiker actually ever met Toc TE?

- Abyss, thinks 'Squint' is a cooler name than 'Toc'.

[Mael]

Abyss;177223 said:

Sky' makes a good, point, but the situation was rather... stressed. Plus, do we know that Duiker actually ever met Toc TE?

- Abyss, thinks 'Squint' is a cooler name than 'Toc'.

It is assumed that he would have based on his description of the initial "Family". He was also taught to read and write alongside Toc the Younger so it is more then likely that Duiker and Toc the Elder had seen each other.

[Battalion]

He might not of recognised him behind the bushy tash and thick glassess.

[Abyss]

Of course, one wouldn't expect him to be hiding in his Toc the Elder suit, but all above points are valid, and we see Squints internal monologue in TB which really supports shuffling the Squint/Toc theory off into the distance along with Orfantal's shifting gender and anything that suggests Dassem isn't Traveller.

- Abyss, qualifies all the above with 'unless/until SE says otherwise'.

[buddhacat]

Abyss;177249 said:

Of course, one wouldn't expect him to be hiding in his Toc the Elder suit, but all above points are valid, and we see Squints internal monologue in TB which really supports shuffling the Squint/Toc theory off into the distance along with Orfantal's shifting gender and anything that suggests Dassem isn't Traveller.

Apsalar did not recognize Squint as Toc the Elder, either. She would know, from Dancer's memories.

[Battalion]

Good point.

[Coco with marshmallows]

of course, that leads to another question...

How does Squint know that Sorry/Apsalar had been posessed by a god?

It's not exactly common knowledge.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Not sure, but how does this sound?

The Bridgeburners knew. Fiddler took that knowledge to Seven Cities, and later he joined Squint's army as Strings. I dare say it may have been disseminated then, via discussions with Gesler and the other experienced hands.

That's only one option, but it seems reasonable. No doubt Tavore knows too, she would've been informed of the mission Lorn died carrying out, and she would know that Apsalar was the target. So the knowledge could've flown down from the Malazan command rather than up from Fiddler.

[Illuyankas]

Out from Bottle eavesdropping seems most likely.

[Gem Windcaster]

Cocoreturns;177391 said:

of course, that leads to another question...

How does Squint know that Sorry/Apsalar had been posessed by a god?

It's not exactly common knowledge.

Maybe it's not common knowledge for everyone, but my guess is that word travels in armies. It's not like it's a secret or anything.

---

I'm so happy about winning now...I wouldn't have gotten RG until maybe June if I hadn't won. Maybe I'll even get to read it already next week! I'm so excited!

[Coco with marshmallows]

yeah, but the problem with the rumour mill idea is that squint is virtually ostracised from the rest of the army, even if it is somewhat self-imposed.

as for it coming from Fiddler, i don't think it's the sort of thing he'd mention given what would come out in the explanation ("oh, by the way, someone in my old unit was possessed by the rope. Who also happens to be Dancer. yeah really. Oh, and it turns out that Shadowthrone is Kellanved. So Lasseen ballsed up that assasination attempt thing completely.....")

[Dolorous Menhir]

There are different degrees here:

1. knowing she was the instrument of a god

2. knowing she was possessed by a god

3. knowing she was possessed by the Rope

4. knowing that the Rope is Dancer.

I can't remember exactly what Squint thought, but there's no way 4 is general knowledge among the soldiers and 3 seems unlikely. I think 2 & 1 are probably the common view of Apsalar, and Malazan soldiers are not the type to go prying into such things, they are too smart for that.

And if it did come via Fiddler, he could easily reveal 1-3 to close comrades like Gesler & Cuttle without letting on about Dancer.

[Kurt Montandon]

Dolorous Menhir;177419 said:

There are different degrees here:
And if it did come via Fiddler, he could easily reveal 1-3 to close comrades like Gesler & Cuttle without letting on about Dancer.

He tosses it out pretty much off-hand to Bottle, when walking back from Y'Ghatan. Right before Bottle points out that the spirits inhabiting the lizard skeletons are dragons (don't have the exact page). Fiddler mentions that while Apsalar is a former squad-mate, he doesn't really know her all that well, because she "happened to be possessed by the Rope nearly the entire time" she was a Bridgeburner.

So word's probably gotten around - besides which, Kalam and Quick Ben were on the same ship as Squint, so may have mentioned it in his hearing.

[spiralx]

The soldiers in the Malazan armies do seem to spend most of their time gossiping, so it's entirely possible

[Binder of Demons]

I don't think it that unlikely that many people in the army would know of Apsalars past. Like several above have mentioned, gossip was pretty commonplace in the army.
Remember also how much info the Mott Irregulars had about the malazan army people too. So info did get about.

The theory of Toc elder being Squint is still the best one I've heard (almost purely on the basis of the archer quote), but I don't think it's the case. I have no better alternative at the moment, but I do think Toc elder will return.

There have been several instances in the book where the actions of one character has had serious consequences for their blood relatives (sometimes unknowingly) and I've a nagging suspicion it could happen again with the Toc's.

In defence of my crazy theory I cite the following family fortunes. Gothos + Icarium. The various "Gods" and other Ascendants also work on this score but I'll leave them aside for now. Quick Ben and his Sister. Whiskeyjack and his sister. The whole Paran household. Tool and his sister. The Sengar family. The Beddict family.

SE seems to like putting the strain on families and I have to think we'll finally see Toc Elder meet his "reborn?" son Toc/Anaster.

[Set'alahd Crool]

I'm fairly sure Duiker would have recognised Squint if he was Toc the Elder.

After all, it was Toc the Elder who taught Duiker how to read and write.

[ASAGO]

Binder of Demons;176929 said:

Ok, so the search function doesn't like the word TOC so I'm forced to ask this aloud. Apologies if it's been discussed specifically before.

Is TOC the Elder still alive, and do you think we've seen him in the series so far? There have been several mentions of him which suggest he's not as gone as people think (I can't think of the refs right now, of course :Erm: )

Basically, we've had various references to "the Old Guard" of the Malazan Empire throughout the novels. Now originally, it appeared that most of them were dead or missing (presumed dead). But as of Bonehunters, we've seen the Crust Brothers, Traveller, Hawl, Tayschrenn, Nok, Dujek, ST and Dancer of course, and even Surly is still on the go (now whether she's old guard is another matter?). So, we've seen most of the originals re-appear as very significant individuals.

Now apart from Ameron, whose name doesn't crop up all that often, it just leaves TOC the Elder to make a re-appearance to complete the set of Old Guard.

Any thoughts?

P.S. Who was Toc the Younger's mother again? Was it a sister of Nok, or one of the Crusts?

I believe the old guard will come back in later novels especially the Talons I believe they made a packed with hood himself and wiskeyjack is part of that sceme

[ASAGO]

Gem Windcaster;177402 said:

Maybe it's not common knowledge for everyone, but my guess is that word travels in armies. It's not like it's a secret or anything.

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I'm so happy about winning now...I wouldn't have gotten RG until maybe June if I hadn't won. Maybe I'll even get to read it already next week! I'm so excited!

All I can say is I have recieved RG and the funny thing is that I ordered it at the same time night of knives and I still havent recieved that book it is really a pisser waiting for a book that has been out for a long time and getting a book that hasnt even been released yet

[Dolorous Menhir]

Are you saying you have Reaper's Gale already??? It's not our for another two weeks!