[paladin]

Battalion, I believe they were initially used for shock and awe, but did little actual damage

[Aptorian]

It hasn't been brought up yet so I'll throw it in the mix; The Malazans also seem to be the first to really use Ottataral strategically.

Ottataral negates magic and will determin whether or not technology or magic comes to the fore. All the high ranking officers seem to have ottataral handed to them but more interesting, the Malazan siegewalls on 7C seemed to have been saturated with Ottataral to prevent mages pulling down the walls. This would mean that siegeweapons would become necessary.

[Kage-za]

One of the problems preventing the Malazans (and presumably the Moranth before them) from adopting the munitions to other military uses is that they are very fragile, and until Fiddler and Hedge develop their special lobber crossbow (or have it made for them by the instrument maker on Malaz Island), they could only be thrown or placed on/in the ground in front of the enemy. In order for the use of munitions to really revolutionize the military, the Moranth are going to have to develop new munitions. The Malazans don't know how to make them you can't take one apart because it explodes.

[Cause]

Aptorian;172366 said:

It hasn't been brought up yet so I'll throw it in the mix; The Malazans also seem to be the first to really use Ottataral strategically.

Ottataral negates magic and will determin whether or not technology or magic comes to the fore. All the high ranking officers seem to have ottataral handed to them but more interesting, the Malazan siegewalls on 7C seemed to have been saturated with Ottataral to prevent mages pulling down the walls. This would mean that siegeweapons would become necessary.

Seven cities built the walls of Aren. And they used ottateral against the malazans to great effect. I believe its said in the books by one of the bridge burners if not for the imass and the fact ottateral has no effect on them they could not have won through in seven cities

[Lancelot]

@ Cause - True, at the start of DG when the Setral(sp?) Bruvva's are on the docks, Duiker or Kulp(????) Notices that they have Ottataral links in their chainmail.
The Red Blades even though fighting for the Mezla are originally 7C born.

[Brys Beddict]

Whiskeyjack explains in MoI how Dassem Ultor used wedge like formations to cut off communication in the enemy army and separate them, which allowed the Malazan army to destroy the enemy with greater ease. He uses that formation in the battle where Rake goes executioner on the crazy Tenescowri. Another formation we hear about is one Greymane used in Korelri. He rearranged his unit formation for better fighting on all fronts, and in HoC, Leuitenant Ranal follows the same protocol by the time they get to the Holy Desert.

[Onrack the breakable]

In MT Shurq Elalle is mentioned as "cannoning off a ledge" implying cannons or at least bombards have occasionally put in an appearance. Of course this was the UK version so perhaps the language means other than standard American English.

Irregardless of language, saying something cannons off (richochet or rebound or just makes a loud "boom!") implies the knowledge of cannons themselves yes?

Due to the widespread use of magic perhaps cannons and bombards are as dangerous to the user as to the recipients tho? More dangerous than moranth hand grenados becuase in addition to making big boom and blowing things up, cannons weigh alot and are cumbersom to move around. Much better to stick to expendable sappers who move themselves, more or less.

[Imperial Historian]

It's equally likely that it just slipped though, such as references to hell slipped though in GotM, it's written in English so presumably the language will reflect many ideas that it wouldn't in the malaz world.

though when you look at it logically, gunpowder quickly becomes useless in the large quantities required for cannon, any mage would quickly be able to locate and set it alight, Moranth munitions would seem to avoid this as detonations tend to go towards warrens, so any mage would at least be seriously damaged if he attempted it.

[Kurt Montandon]

Onrack the breakable;172707 said:

In MT Shurq Elalle is mentioned as "cannoning off a ledge" implying cannons or at least bombards have occasionally put in an appearance. Of course this was the UK version so perhaps the language means other than standard American English.

This is more likely an authorial usage, rather than from the mind of the character.

Kind of like mention of an "Adam's apple" in DG doesn't mean that there's an Eden myth with Adam and Eve in the Malazan world, it just means the author used a real-world phrase, and probably wishes he hadn't.

[Onrack the breakable]

Adam could refer to any male name, as would a "Johns apple" although the name Adam isn't common in literature nowdays if it ever was so perhaps that is a good point. Alas most names in the MBOtF are bizarre so having a common name would be difficult. I personally think it should've been called an "Onracks apple" since he seems a sort of Adam for humans.

But cannoning requires knowledge of cannons. He could've just said 'carooming 'which is a nonsense word which means the same thing more or less but is not related to any specific technology like 'cannoning' is.

[Dark Mac]

Onrack the breakable;172789 said:

But cannoning requires knowledge of cannons. He could've just said 'carooming 'which is a nonsense word which means the same thing more or less but is not related to any specific technology like 'cannoning' is.

Weren't cannons named after the act of cannoning, rather than the other way around?

[Kurt Montandon]

Dark Mac;172796 said:

Weren't cannons named after the act of cannoning, rather than the other way around?

Cannon is from a Latin word meaning "tube," so, no.

[Trotts]

I think we're gettin a little too caught up in the details

[Abyss]

Isn't the word 'detail' derived from... oh, wait, sorry, nevermind...

I suspect IH's point about large quantities of gunpowder would make sense in the context of munitions, except that the only munitions the Malazans have are the ones the Moranth gave them. So it's not like the Malazan army is really in a position to do anything more complex than set, throw, or launch a la Fid's crossbow... they have not discovered gunpowder ('yet' i suppose).

The Moranth have their quorls... so they can just do an aerial bombard - you don't need to propel explosives when you can just drop them from on high, so no motive there to develop a launching mechanism.

Strictly speaking, as we saw in TB and HoC, a sapper with a satchel full of munitions is pretty much as vulnerable/dangerous as a pile of munitions sitting around waiting to be zapped.

Plus, in as much as munitions are vulnerable to mages, mages are vulnerable to munitions. IOf both sides have mages that are cancelling/countering each other, the ability to send a squad of sappers in to blow the other side's mages into fine red mist is handy. Five expendable dudes with half-decent throwing arms are worth one relatively hard-to-replace high mage.

Plus the whole munitions-otataral-magic thing we've never really had explained other than there's a kaboom involved.

Two other series come to mind: Rosenberg's GUARDIANS OF THE FLAME and Stackpole's DRAGONCROWN CYCLE. Both play with the idea of gunpowder in magic-rich fantasy settings, and the usual outcome is more 'mages blown into fine red mist' than the alternative.

- Abyss, fan of the earth-shattering ka-boom.

[Trotts]

Quote

The Moranth have their quorls... so they can just do an aerial bombard - you don't need to propel explosives when you can just drop them from on high, so no motive there to develop a launching mechanism.

Oh man, can't you just picture a bunch of Moranth riding their quorls, dropping munitions, while playing "Ride of the Valkeryies"


Okay, maybe thats just me....

[Onrack the breakable]

Trotts;173004 said:

Oh man, can't you just picture a bunch of Moranth riding their quorls, dropping munitions, while playing "Ride of the Valkeryies"


Okay, maybe thats just me....

Actually that sort of happened in the assault on Coral. Except a few demonic magic spewing condors inflicted massive casualties on the initial troop transports, but later they did manage to get in a flight of "carpet bombers".

I just want to clarify that I do think that cannon may have put in appearances in the Malazan world but likely with unfortunate results and thus the word cannoning would be not out of context like an Adam's apple is.

Maybe it is just another adams apple but I think it reflects their level of technology capability, but the pervasivness of magic renders it pretty much useless. Like I said before, sappers are cheaper and can move themselves. Even there they found it best to break up sappers and not have them in too big a group or else risk a big "Kaboom!" simply due to mishap and stupidity let alone magic in battlefield conditions.

See what I'm saying here? Having a certain technology capability doesn't mean its suitable for the task at hand or that anyone but scholars under ideal conditions could make any use of it. The hardest part of nearly all technology (I'm a degreed engineer by the way) is making it idiotproof. Because the world (this world and likely any others) is full of idiots...

And not just the sapper at the end user level, there are levels of idiocy for ship captains (Titanic comes to mind here) generals and admirals. But also magic adds an entirely new level of idiocy that guarding against may make the technology impractical and a waste of time, money, and human resources. If any old backwoods hick of a Bole brother can negate it or worse turn it into a weapon against you (simply by wishful thinking or however else you describe magic), its beyond pointless.

[Varan]

hmm I think the tech is based a bit on the chinese empire, i almost 100% convinced that the marines are based on the first emperor's crack troops (dont know their name). But their equipment is similar to the marines if i can remember correctly...

[Wiggles]

re: cannoning. Why does their have to be 'reason'? It was probably just a typo, and its not like there arent a bunch of others in the books...

[tiam]

I seriosly think cannoning is just to describe an action. If it was used such as ' the rock from the catapult cannoned towards the wall' then yes maybe cannons have been invented. But in Shurqs context it just deosnt mean theres cannons somewere. Also technically cannons or atleast RPG esque weapons were used in BH when cuttle used the ballistae with a netted cusser. I suppose that could be applied to use for naval warefare or even to fire at infantry formations to break up a charge.

Also cannons wouldnt really have been invented due to magic. Ive know this has been covered but whod bother inventing a cannon when say 10 cannons firing at block of infantry wouldnt be as effective as a half tidy mage blasting them. It seems that although it would be useful to combat otateral and also more effective as mages run out of steam alot quicker. Im not an expert but do even the malazans (or Letherii) have forging techniques to make a cannon

[spiralx]

Given the qualities ascribed to Letherii steel, it would certainly seem as though they'd have the ability to make a cannon.