[paladin]

but it takes an idea in the first place.. the bridgeburners seem to be the first to think of a weapon for firing explosives utilizing spring like functionality. has anyone thought of a weapon that uses those explosives to propel an object? it took a long time for our culture to bridge that gap

[Kurt Montandon]

spiralx;176306 said:

Given the qualities ascribed to Letherii steel, it would certainly seem as though they'd have the ability to make a cannon.

The steel that is good for cannon making is not the same as steel that is good for sword making. This is why cannon were still exploding in the bad sort of way (all over, rather than just from the front), towards the end of the 19th Century, even though the metals used in edged weapons were at their pinnacle[1]. Metallurgy still was an evolving science (and remains so, too a degree).

And it's possible there's a magical aspect to Letherii steel - we don't know what makes it so unique.



[1]OK, there's been one or two major improvements in carbon-steel alloys since, but still ...

[Mael]

There were no Cannons in the books as far as i remember. Remember that the moranth munitions aren't ignition based explosives but rather explode on contact with air (pottasium based or something) so they didn't have gunpowder as we know it.

As for the munitions and Otataral...it was explained that it's not that the Otataral reacts with the munitionas specifically, but rather that the otataral has a very violent reaction when it is heated to high temperatures.

[Abyss]

Mael;176747 said:

...As for the munitions and Otataral...it was explained that it's not that the Otataral reacts with the munitionas specifically, but rather that the otataral has a very violent reaction when it is heated to high temperatures.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't it a reaction when magic was used on Otataral that had been hit by munitions, or vice versa/some combo thereof?

- Abyss, loves the earth-shattering ka-boom. And bets this is a plot point we'll see later.

[Illuyankas]

They do say otataral when it's hot rather specifically, with italics even, but the explosions could have heated the stuff before the magic hit it.

[Abyss]

Someone have the quote (wiki doesn't)? *HITS THE VAISKI SIGNAL*

It was a musing, iirc by Kalam in HoC, to something that happened in Mott wood that only he, QB and Fiddler witnessed.

- Abyss, wonders if you could call that 'hotataral'.

[Binder of Demons]

pg 885 uk paperback I think?

Quote

Few knew the full extent of its properties

Quote

Only a handful of witnesses survived the incident, Kalam and Quick Ben among them

Quote

Otataral it seemed did not go well with moranth munitions, particularly burners and flamers. Or to put it another way, it doesn't like getting hot. He knew that weapons were quenched in otataral dust at a late stage in their forging. When the iron had lost it's glow, in fact. Likely, the blacksmiths had arrived at that conclusion the hard way. But even that was not the whole secret. It's what happens to hot otataral....... when you throw magic at it.

That's all that got mentioned i think?

[Locke Reaper]

If i remember correctly the chinese had the use of cannons in 1421 approx. that was made from copper. I think if you have the ability to make fireworks ala the ancient chinese the the leave to cannons are not that big.

As for ortataral, it is sort of mineralized magic if i'm not mistaken. So maybe apon heating it releases energy i.e. the pent up magical energy and that is why it makes such a big bada-BOOM!

[Abyss]

Binder of Demons;176858 said:

pg 885 uk paperback I think?...

That was it. So the key was serious heat + otataral + magic = something bad and messy.

But it doesn't seem to be something one would want to deliberately invoke. Which brings us back to canons, which, imnsho, may be a logical step once you have explosives, but not one that the books have reached yet.

Don't forget, it's not like the Moranth are telling everyone how they do their munition thing.

- Abyss, also wonders how they get the caramel into the Caramilk bar.

[Battalion]

The Moranth are in a frantic race against time, their scientists matching wits against those of the Barghast, each trying to be first to create Heavy Water. And then?
Malazans steal the formular and take all the credit.

[Onos]

Although not exactly the same as Moranth munitions the greeks and the romans had 'greek fire'. Something that wasnt too easy to make and they kept to my understanding pretty secret from their enemies. My understanding is 'greek fire' was both launch at other ships and also used in a flame thrower style.

Anyway, give me a lot of greek fire in a medival or pre medial world with a legion of trained troops i could take over a continent... but i am sure there were supply and production issues that limited it to only special situations.

Another comparison is the material that was used in TNT in its liquid form. Great powerful stuff! But tented to leave the handlers quite dead more often than not until the managed to make it inert until detonated.

[polishgenius]

Onos;177048 said:

Something that wasnt too easy to make and they kept to my understanding pretty secret from their enemies.

Too right. Secret enough that we still don't know what was actually in it.

[Kurt Montandon]

Swordbearer;177626 said:

Technological advances do not come at a standardized rate, Gunpowder in its original form was probably a medecine for warts or maybe ancient Chinese viagra. most old technologys were just plain old mistakes, gunpowder would'nt have worked if the apothocary had stuck to powder'd dog penis instead of saltpetre.

Perhaps, although this doesn't really apply to metallurgy past about the tenth century B.C. That particular art has been subject to a great deal of intentional refinement and experimentation. I do think Toc the Younger's comment about iron only having been discovered by the humans of Quon Tali five centuries earlier must be a mis-step, as that seems far too recent.

And the Chinese used gunpowder for a variety of purposes, some of them martial.

[Mael]

Abyss;176902 said:

That was it. So the key was serious heat + otataral + magic = something bad and messy.

From the quote it appears that magic isn't exactly a factor from the blacksmithing perspective.

Heat (from moranth explosives or other source) + Otataral = Boom....+ Magic = Something very nasty

Magic + Moranth Munitions = something very nasty

Perhaps the Moranth use Otataral as an ingredient in thier explosives. It seems to be an ingredient for many other things such as the Teblors blood oil.

Another interesting sidenote:

It has been stated in the books that the Moranth learned thier alchemy from the lost Tiste Edur that they allied themselves with following scabbies downfall and the Edur's being scattered by the powers that be.

In GotM Quickben laid out some very dire consequenses for having an open warren in close proximity to a moranth explosion.

I believe Trull at one point also uses a moranth incindiary to either open or close a tear in a warren (can't remember which).

So my question is...is it possible that the Edur destroyed thier own realm with a combination of magic and Edur type incidiaries? (maybe a really big bomb used to assassinate the Edur royal family)

[Imperial Historian]

The moranth munitions were designed to kill sorcerors

Quote

Originally, before the dominance of the Silver caste among the Moranth, the munitions existed to counter sorcery, or, rather, to kill sorcerors.

but I don't think it has anything to do with otatoral, the munitions are reffed as being drawn to open warrens, on the order of any mage nearby will be blown to pieces as we see with raest, but munitions are able to be used by mages so I don't think they could have any otatoral in...

As to the edur munitions damaging shadow... unlikely a warren isn't likely to be damaged by any mundane weapon in my view, Trull only used the munitions to blow up the seals holding closed a gate, he didn't effect the substance of the warren with his munition in any way.

[Kurt Montandon]

Imperial Historian;178101 said:

The moranth munitions were designed to kill sorcerors

Is that a Reaper's Gale quote? Because I don't recognize a reference to the "Silver Moranth" at all.

[Imperial Historian]

It's from a Q&A SE did with the WOT site some time back, this one in fact about half way down.

[Kurt Montandon]

Imperial Historian;178122 said:

It's from a Q&A SE did with the WOT site some time back, this one in fact about half way down.

Interesting, in that he gave a lot away that isn't mentioned in the books, and probably otherwise would have been save for Toll the Hounds.

[Mael]

Quote

but munitions are able to be used by mages so I don't think they could have any otatoral in...

Good point