[Locke Reaper]

The reason i ask this is based on karsa orlong and in the midnight tides five toblakai were captives of the dying, now dead, azath.

What makes them so formidable?
Are they elder?
from another realm?
or are they just one of those unexplained occurances?

[Cause]

those were five ascendant theolomens. More than your regular ones

[Battalion]

I thought they were gods ... which, if they were, makes Iron bars a fuckin' hard nut.

[Aptorian]

Lets first make one thing clear. Toblakai is just a word some of the characters use for the giant tribes still around. They have also been called Fenn, Teblor, Thelomen and Tarthenal. These races all descend from an elder race called Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai.

The TTT were far more advanced then the tribes we now know of, they may or may not be the civilization we hear of in HoC. The Teblor descending from a giant race that came from a civilization that lived in big cities and had a thriving culture. But most notably the TTT were huge. According to Kalams fight with the demon possesed TTT, perhaps as much as 3 times the hight of a human being and using platearmor.

The Seregal, as the Tarthenal Gods were called, probably didn't have anything to do with the TTT. Most likely they were just powerfull mage/priest-warriors or ascendants that ruled as tyrants. They might once have had the power of worship but that power had vanished with the turning of their people. That is the only explanation for them being as crap as they were

[Battalion]

Ha! Maybe it was because they'd spent the last however long under ground, or wherever they were being held.
I remember that thing that Kalam tore up with. It was huge! You think that the like between Teblor and TTT is like the link between house cats and tigers?

[Jorram]

Aptorian;162326 said:

The Seregal, as the Tarthenal Gods were called, probably didn't have anything to do with the TTT. Most likely they were just powerfull mage/priest-warriors or ascendants that ruled as tyrants. They might once have had the power of worship but that power had vanished with the turning of their people. That is the only explanation for them being as crap as they were

I think you're mistaken there. The Tarthenal tribe has been worshipping the Seregal when the latter were already long since buried. The Seregal were gods to the Tarthenal in the sense the Unbound were gods for the Teblor. By themselves they were not gods, they were TTT ascendants, imprisoned by the Azath a long time ago, probably at the time when TTT still thrived.

[Aptorian]

Jorram;162540 said:

I think you're mistaken there. The Tarthenal tribe has been worshipping the Seregal when the latter were already long since buried. The Seregal were gods to the Tarthenal in the sense the Unbound were gods for the Teblor. By themselves they were not gods, they were TTT ascendants, imprisoned by the Azath a long time ago, probably at the time when TTT still thrived.

The problem is if the Seregahl were pureblood TTTs then we miss calculated the seize of the TTT. Through Kalams meeting with the TTT in the well and now with the mention of Killy being as broad as a TTT is high, a TTT should be at least 4 meters tall and more likely 6 meters or even more to compare with the shoulder span Killy must have.

Now I don't know how tall Iron Bars is, but if we say he's fighting with something the length of a bastard sword, I have a problem with him reaching up and poking a TTT eye out. More importantly if you are struck by something that towers 2-3 times your hight... I don't know what the Crimson Guard elite is built out of but I'm sure the Malazan army would like some of that.

And I definently don't think they are ascendant TTTs because that would make them tremendously more powerfull than what they managed. As Imperial Historian so brilliantly put it an ascendant is one so powerfull he is able achieve dominans in his race. TTTs, if the hype is believable, are really badass creatures, just imagine Karsa on steroids twice the size... now imagine someone stronger than that and that would probably be a TTT ascendant.

About their worship, I think the line by one of the Tarthenal was that when they pray, they pray for the Seregahl to not return. That's sort of in the same sense christians make the sign of the cross to ward off the devil. That doesn't mean they're worshipping the devil. The Seregahl dont have the power of followers, not like the Unbound has, The Unbound are worshipped, the Seregahl are doused in crap and piss every day ... Also I don't think The Unbound is a good example since SE's made their existance and power somewhat of a mystery.

[BridgeBurner]

Aptorian;162557 said:

About their worship, I think the line by one of the Tarthenal was that when they pray, they pray for the Seregahl to not return. That's sort of in the same sense christians make the sign of the cross to ward off the devil. That doesn't mean they're worshipping the devil. The Seregahl dont have the power of followers, not like the Unbound has, The Unbound are worshipped, the Seregahl are doused in crap and piss every day ... Also I don't think The Unbound is a good example since SE's made their existance and power somewhat of a mystery.

I really liked that notion about turning shit and urine on their statues... And how Ublala Pung went at them without a second thought when he saw them rising...

About the Unbound, wasn't it stated that they were T'lann Imass who failed their task and refused to go with the usual path here, and took up the CG's offer instead? I'm sure that the Bonecaster's original identity was narrowed down to a few candidates in HoC....

[Aptorian]

BridgeBurner;162684 said:

About the Unbound, wasn't it stated that they were T'lann Imass who failed their task and refused to go with the usual path here, and took up the CG's offer instead? I'm sure that the Bonecaster's original identity was narrowed down to a few candidates in HoC....

Oh yes they are T'lan Imass that have been severed from the ritual, it's not that. I'm just more confused with their powers, as seen in HoC. They are supposed to have the power of worship and their magic is driven by the chaosmagic that the CG uses. They are able to summon huge chains that rip a ship in pieces. Yet Karsa just chops one in pieces like it was kindling and the rest flee from him... chickens

I cant figure out if they're merely soldiers of the CG, his (originally) seven hounds if you will. Or if they are much more powerful than what we've seen so far and driven by their own goals of supremacy and dominans.

[Abyss]

Echoing an earlier point, the ORIGINAL Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai were huge and presumably civilized. Really, we have only speculation, hints, and Nightchill's High Mage buddy Bellurdan Skullcrusher - and let's face it, with a name like 'Skullcrusher' and his fragile emotional state, the dude wasn't exactly a poster child for the uber race (tho it was him Tayshrenn sent on a research trip, so he couldn't be all brawn and no brains).

All the spin-off races, Bhargast, Trell, Fenn, Tarthenal (Ublala's people), Toblakai (Karsa's people) are watered down versions.

What's also interesting is Bellurdan's assertion in GotM that just by being T3, he had Jaghut blood in him.

My pet theory: The T3 were the result of K'chain Che'malle genetic messing with original proto-human/eres/whatever stock with a dose of Jaghut to make a slave race that was bigger and stronger than the originals, but they ended up with something that could breed and multiply better with others than it's own kind, hence all the spin-offs and lack of the originals.

I think the Serengal were either already spin-offs when they ascended, ie: they were Toblakai, but not pure original T3, or else the thing Kalam kebabed in HoC was bigger than normal due to the additional boost from demon possession.

- Abyss, notes that size does not matter.

[drinksinbars]

Abyss;162852 said:

- Abyss, notes that size does not matter.

it does if you have to fight the big brute:)

[Shurque's biatch]

I haven't seen the thread on Karsa's size but it fits here. In HoC he is described many times very vaguely.

Early as being a head taller that a barghast or something.

Later as having his waist the same height as what's his name Nom's chest.

Then a little later as being twice the height of a Dal Honese.

(I wrote all the quotes down but didn't bring them to work).

So what are the theories about the various sizes?

[Mael]

Quote

Oh yes they are T'lan Imass that have been severed from the ritual, it's not that. I'm just more confused with their powers, as seen in HoC. They are supposed to have the power of worship and their magic is driven by the chaosmagic that the CG uses. They are able to summon huge chains that rip a ship in pieces. Yet Karsa just chops one in pieces like it was kindling and the rest flee from him... chickens

I cant figure out if they're merely soldiers of the CG, his (originally) seven hounds if you will. Or if they are much more powerful than what we've seen so far and driven by their own goals of supremacy and dominans.

The unbound are simply T'lan Imass (An Imass by itself could destroy a god) and did not have any real power until they were free'd by Karsa. Having "failed" in thier task they were severed from the ritual (if they weren't already severed by thier failure) and entombed in the faces in the rock. The CG selected and used them just like everyone else he uses. The unbound in turn decided to use Karsa as thier means of escape. The worship accorded the faces in the rock did not provide them with any power other then the ability to contact and "infuence" those who worshipped them. When Karsa (a worshipper) left his homeland he brought thier infuence with him and subsequently released them from the faces of the rock (but not yet free'd them completely) by carving thier likeness in his grove in Seven Cities. Remember that up until this point only the unbound's spirits are able to manifest themsleves. When Karsa arrives at the location where the unbound's weapons are entombed they are able to reclaim them and are finally free'd and able to assume corporeal form, at which point Karsa cleaves one in half.

That is all the worship accorded the unbound by the Teblor does. It does not make them any more powerful then they already are. The flooded warren and the chains smashing the ships entering it were not the product of the unbound.

As for the size of the TTT they seem to vary. I had always assumed that Karsa was approximatly 10-12 feet tall or thereabouts. All of the offshoots of the TTT are smaller then the original since almost all of them have been "corrupted" by human (Imass) blood. The Teblor are closer to the TTT in size then all the other races mentioned but they are still smaller then the original TTT. I believe that the Theloman discovered by Kalem and the ones in the Azath Grounds in lether were between 12 and 14 feet in height which isn't that big of a difference when you take the scale into account. After all i can take a 5ft person and stand them next to a 7ft person today and no one would see it out of the ordinary. Delum thord was about a foot taller then Karsa and Beiroth Guild was about a foot smaller but wider, meaning Delum and Bairoth had about a 2 foot height difference between them. I think that if you walked into a TTT city you would find Toblakai ranging from 10-14 feet (or maybe even the odd 16ft yao ming toblakai) in height depending on the individual.

[Aptorian]

I agree that the possesed TTT in the well could be a fluke but then what about killy's size?

From the Reapers Gale prologue.

Quote

The naked creature that traversed the rough path formed by the fallen dragons was a match to their mass, yet bound to the earth, and it walked on two bowed legs, the thighs thick as thousand-year old trees. The width of its shoulders was equal to the length of a Tartheno Toblakai’s height;

6 meters or more suddenly doesn't sound like much compared to Killy's description.

Of all the things in SEs novels the only thing I really curse him for, is his love of seizing things up but leaving things intentionally vague.

Shurq:
The big problem with Karsa is that every POV we have of him has him pegged at around 7-8 feet. Yet he manages again and again to do things that just doesn't make sense. The entire attack on the coastal village in the first book of HoC has you believing he must 10-12 feet or more. Otherwise how does a man and his horse jump over a city wall or knock down a city gate, crushing masonry, with his own weight. He wrestles a Deragoth that's even bigger than a Hound of Shadow. He kills a KCCM with his bare hands.

In my own head I've grudingly settled on 9 feet... but I don't like it

[Abyss]

Point being, worship = power, to different degrees. The Seven Rocky Unbound were the recipients for worship from Toblakai, a founding race, albeit a fallen branch, for generations. There's power there - not enough for them to be free until the CG got involved and Karsa went off into the world, but even so, enough to maintain the seven in better shape that the 'average' t'lan imass severed from the Ritual and entombed.

- Abyss, could make a Rocky 7 joke here.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I believe Karsa is around 9 or 10 feet tall specifically because he is described as being twice the height of Iskaral Pust, who I would imagine is not smaller than 5 feet. When we see him at the end of HoC, he is riding his horse, so no proper gauge by Keneb (it is Keneb's POV at that point, right?) can be made. All of the math disagrees with my mental image of him.

Now, we know that he is far more dense than a human....biologically speaking, not mentally; sorry Karsa-haters. Despite this, the Jhag horses and their descendants clearly must be high jumpers to justify the beginning of HoC; that's something I think we are just going to have to accept. Also, based on the trailings off of SE right after he frees the Jaghut from her Tellann entrapment, I think we can conclude that Karsa's Teblor race has Jaghut blood running through it; possibly a mixture with the original TTT.

With that in mind, and keeping SE's words on Karsa's sheer tenacity defining his fight with the Deragoth, that fight is a bit more believable. Which leaves the height of the ascendants Iron Bars fights still in question, though I had pictured them as around seven feet tall.

[Mael]

Quote

Point being, worship = power, to different degrees. The Seven Rocky Unbound were the recipients for worship from Toblakai, a founding race, albeit a fallen branch, for generations. There's power there - not enough for them to be free until the CG got involved and Karsa went off into the world, but even so, enough to maintain the seven in better shape that the 'average' t'lan imass severed from the Ritual and entombed.

- Abyss, could make a Rocky 7 joke here.

Indeed. I believe it was also stated that the worship was what "awakened" them from their isolation in the first place. It may be that the Teblor Shamans recieved a limited form of power (access to tellan) that we weren't really introduced too aswell.

Quote

I think we can conclude that Karsa's Teblor race has Jaghut blood running through it

It would also explain why the TTT could breed with the Jaghut to create the Jhag halfbreeds after the fact.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Abyss;162852 said:

Echoing an earlier point, the ORIGINAL Thelomen Tartheno Toblakai were huge and presumably civilized. Really, we have only speculation, hints, and Nightchill's High Mage buddy Bellurdan Skullcrusher - and let's face it, with a name like 'Skullcrusher' and his fragile emotional state, the dude wasn't exactly a poster child for the uber race (tho it was him Tayshrenn sent on a research trip, so he couldn't be all brawn and no brains).

Remember the Laederon Plateau. The Teblor descended from a TTT civilisation that was collateral damage to the Imass-Jaghut war in the region. From the writings Karsa finds in the cave.

[Shurque's biatch]

Aptorian;162900 said:

Shurq:
The big problem with Karsa is that every POV we have of him has him pegged at around 7-8 feet. Yet he manages again and again to do things that just doesn't make sense. The entire attack on the coastal village in the first book of HoC has you believing he must 10-12 feet or more. Otherwise how does a man and his horse jump over a city wall or knock down a city gate, crushing masonry, with his own weight. He wrestles a Deragoth that's even bigger than a Hound of Shadow. He kills a KCCM with his bare hands.

In my own head I've grudingly settled on 9 feet... but I don't like it

Yeah that was the kick, the wall is described as the height of a child, so between 5 and 7 feet. Havok is described as 30 hands high, iirc. (can any one confirm that??)

Well, just mass alone must be something on the order of 800-1200 pounds. The malazans that carry him (2 per limb) struggle to lift him. 8 men can barely lift him, and Karsa wasn't struggling or anything to get free.

I don't like it either, but 9 feet seems a little small...

[Mael]

Quote

Yeah that was the kick, the wall is described as the height of a child, so between 5 and 7 feet. Havok is described as 30 hands high, iirc. (can any one confirm that??)

Well, just mass alone must be something on the order of 800-1200 pounds. The malazans that carry him (2 per limb) struggle to lift him. 8 men can barely lift him, and Karsa wasn't struggling or anything to get free.

I don't like it either, but 9 feet seems a little small...

About 10 feet tall and 600-700 lbs sounds about right to me (im imagining about twice as tall as a normal human and 3 times the weight.) Remember that modern show jumpers jump 3-5 foot barriers on a standard horse so a 5-7 foot barrier wouldn't provide a tremendous obsticle to a horse half again as high. Also, it would take at least 2 men to carry a standard sleeping 6ft, 220lb man so taking 8 to carry a 10ft, 700lb man doesn't seem too far off.