[Abyss]

Y'know, that is an interesting theory.
It follows on Iccy's comment in DG that Mappo himself approaches ascension.

- Abyss, then again, it could be the big frikkin' magic dinosaur bone.

[Illuyankas]

That's a point, is it a dinosaur bone or a KCCM bone? Don't remember it being confirmed inbook. I'd pick the latter, personally, but it could be either judging from Urko's hobby.

[Abyss]

Hmmm.. certainly possible it's KC, or something else altogether. I'll have to reread that bit - i seem to recall something about the description of how the Trell elders found/made it brought to mind a fossilized dino-bone.


- Abyss, thinks some KC would have really improved Jurassic Parks 2 and 3.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think it's a matter of who the Imass are facing. In GotM we only heard of them in the context of T'lan Imass under Malazan control whipping Seven Cities forces (and civilians). So we got the impression they were unstoppable, but all we were really learning was the human soldiers and the typical human mage just can't hurt them at all.

Whenever we've seen T'lan Imass up against those of power, for example a Jaghut Tyrant or Icarium, we've seen that they're not the invulnerable killing machines they originally appeared to be.

I don't think a human army, without magic, could defeat any number of Imass. It would take forever to damage an Imass to the extent of severance from the Ritual using only human weapons, and in the meantime they would be killing everything in sight. T'lan Imass will always beat humans.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't see what kind of tactics human soldiers could successfully use against the Imass. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Battalion]

Dolorous Menhir;156945 said:

I think it's a matter of who the Imass are facing. In GotM we only heard of them in the context of T'lan Imass under Malazan control whipping Seven Cities forces (and civilians). So we got the impression they were unstoppable, but all we were really learning was the human soldiers and the typical human mage just can't hurt them at all.

Whenever we've seen T'lan Imass up against those of power, for example a Jaghut Tyrant or Icarium, we've seen that they're not the invulnerable killing machines they originally appeared to be.

I don't think a human army, without magic, could defeat any number of Imass. It would take forever to damage an Imass to the extent of severance from the Ritual using only human weapons, and in the meantime they would be killing everything in sight. T'lan Imass will always beat humans.

I agree that it all depends on who these lot are fighting. When the Unbound were confronted with Karsa they all pretty much shat their loin-cloths, but when they attacked Heboric, Cutter and Greyfrog, they wiped them out with ease. And Heboric and the demon were meant to be hard. (At least I think this is the same bunch of Imass; I stand to be corrected).

Quote

I don't see what kind of tactics human soldiers could successfully use against the Imass. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

I'm not sure either. Is there anyway human wizards can channel the power of Chaos? Maybe they could be using that?

[Abyss]

Okay, iirc, in GotM, someone, Toc ref'ing the earlier 7C conquests i think, mused that with enough damage, humans could take out Tlan Imass. Not that it was easy, rather, just that it could be done. And keep in mind once enough damage is done, it seems they weaken somewhat when cut off from the Ritual - for example (and correct me if i'm wrong), Onrack couldn't go dusty once he was cut off, altho Breed and Tool, who were without kin but not as severely damaged, still could. In any event, just go with me here...

SO look at it this way: a batallion'ish size group of undead Tlan Imass, say about 200, all 'average', Legana Breed types - no Tools, Onracks or Ibras, no Bonecasters - are sent into a fortified city. They do their dusty thing, evade the wards on the walls, and in they go, disperse and then solidify in small groups and start killing dudes. Assuming a city perhaps not as big as Aren, let's say a garrison of about a thousand, maybe one champion along the lines of Surgur (NoK) or Leoman, and one Mage along the lines of some of Shaik's lesser mage cadre types whose names elude me at the moment... being generous, let's suppose that due to some silly honour thing, the Imass engage the Champion one at a time and s/he manages to take out one or two Imass before being hacked into tiny bits. Also being generous, let's suppose the mage, being paranoid and somewhat competent, with perhaps a competent bodyguard or two, managed to take out one or two before being kebabed like a chicken-wing filled pinata at a fraternity superbowl party... so now any heavy hitters are down and we're left with the ranks... basic, poorly/moderately armed/trained 7C infantry, some serious soldiers, mostly drafted proles and fanatics... intially, the Imass have surprise on their side, and cheerfully (as these things go) dust about, solidifying to massacre about 400 of the 7C soldiers by surprise and with total success... but now a few leader types are rallying their remaining troops, and the fact that it's fight and die or just die is sinking in... so our merry bands of fanatics start gathering in larger and larger groups and rather than shitting themselves and running away, when Imass show up and kebab their buddies, they attack. In fact, they don't just attack, they hurl themselves bodily on the Imass, grabbing on for dear life (death, whatever) while their buddies hack, stab, and otherwise attempt to cause damage. Sure, most Imass will just hack away and then go dusty and show up somewhare else... but once in a while two or three serious hits are going to land quickly, and do enough damage that the Imass can't just dust out of there, so he stays the course and keeps killing, and the dudes keep jumping on him and hitting him, and eventually (or even quickly if the hit is hard enough) all limbs are removed or the head is severed or the body is split and then it's down to a bunch of surviving fanatics jumping up and down on the undead remains until another Imass shows up and starts the process over again.

So when all's said and done, for maybe 15 Imass, you have a city and 1000 dead dudes feeding the rhizan.

That's how i figure it goes down to tactics - sheer human waves as opposed to magic.

- Abyss, loves a good pinata.

[Battalion]

Can anyone remember if Lorn's sword stopped Tool from dusting down? Maybe this would help? Something tells me, however, that Otataral is ineffective against Elder magic, and I think that the Ritual was Elder.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Otataral doesn't affect the Imass. It's noted at one point that the Malazan invasion of Seven Cities would have failed without T'lan Imass support.

Seven Cities armies, and even the cities, used Otataral in their defences, rendering the Mazalan sorceries useless. Without the Imass to overcome those defences the continent wouldn't have been taken.

Yes, the Ritual is Elder. Tellan is an Elder Warren.

[Battalion]

Cheers, Dolorous, that's what I thought, but was too lazy to check it out.

[Rat Mentor]

In regard to the posible T'lan Imass v Humans who says that it has to be sword against sword or magic v magic? A bag full of Monrath explosives would wipe out hundreds of Imass no?

It's possible that Assail war craft may have explosives like the Monrath, after all the monrath originate from Barghast stock and like the Barghast may be found all around the world...

[Abyss]

Two problems with that:

1. the Moranth are found only in the Cloud Mtns on Genabackis and they (apparently) learned the munitions from the Edur, not their Barghast ancestors; and

2. The Imass Envy and company met had two magic swords stuck in her, which suggests more than a little that someone on Assail is using magic.

- Abyss, prefers chicken stock over Barghast stock.

[Kurt Montandon]

Abyss;157046 said:

SO look at it this way: a batallion'ish size group of undead Tlan Imass, say about 200, all 'average', Legana Breed types [...]
So when all's said and done, for maybe 15 Imass, you have a city and 1000 dead dudes feeding the rhizan.

That's how i figure it goes down to tactics - sheer human waves as opposed to magic.

You had one Legana Breed type - the original, in fact - in Malaz City, against a frenzied crowd of thousands that included a lot of veteran soldiers.

He didn't have much trouble murdering anything that came his way.

And Toc also pointed out that magic had been thrown at the T'lan Imass with desparate abandon, to no avail. I get the feeling even the average T'lan foot-soldier is quite resistant to mortal, non-Elder magic.

I'd be surprised if the Logros armies lost more than a handful in the entire Falari/Seven Cities campaigns. It was the Emperor's restraint in using them that gave human armies a chance, as well as his distraction with other things (he wasn't around for Y'Ghatan, for example).

[Dolorous Menhir]

kmmontandon;157159 said:

And Toc also pointed out that magic had been thrown at the T'lan Imass with desparate abandon, to no avail. I get the feeling even the average T'lan foot-soldier is quite resistant to mortal, non-Elder magic.

It's more along the lines of "totally resistant".

[GingerBreadMan]

Who plays games with the Imass?

And while playing those games...decimates 30+ thousand of them..

[rlfcl]

let's remember that the T'lan Imass had the option of wiping out the entirety of humanity at one point (and it was implied that they could have done so easily) but chose not to and left. Also, it is stated that in this entire war only a relative few TI were killed. so I agree with anyone who's said that there's still something we haven't seen that's giving these human tyrants power enough to beat armies of TI. Unless Assail is like...the size of all the rest of the continents combined (and then some) simple force of numbers on the mortal side wouldn't do it, and i don't see assail taking up half of the world, or extending off into space in order to have that amount of people on it. there's som power, race, or combination of the two that has never been shown yet.

[Abyss]

kmmontandon;157159 said:

You had one Legana Breed type - the original, in fact - in Malaz City, against a frenzied crowd of thousands that included a lot of veteran soldiers.

He didn't have much trouble murdering anything that came his way.

I knew someone was going to make this point, and retrospectively meant to clarify: i was using Breed as my generic example, Tool, Onrack and Ibra all having been ref'd as exceptional even for undead neanderthal warriors. Back on topic, my point was that in a situation where (unlike Malaz city, where they ran like hell) the humans are either going to fight, or die, or are fanatical enough to take that view anyways, enough normal people hurling themselves with abandon at Imass are going to eventually have an effect. Crank the numbers up high enough and throw in magic invested weapons and i believe you have Assail.

But just for fun, consider the other possibilities...

Bara was thinking he had a way to deal with Imass without dying or using magic. Mok was just that good. What if the Tyrants on Assail have just trained a human army to the point where the soldiers are in fact just better than the Imass. A squad of Malazan marines took out Karsa in HoC... maybe a well trained infantry team with just a bit of magic can take an Imass warrior, by ambush or outright.

Another option: what if there is a level of tech involved - constucts or golems or something. Humans are pulling the strings, but not doing the fighting.

- Abyss, also considered maybe those Imass were just wussies.

[rlfcl]

yes, maybe Ifayle and Kerluhm were the figurative short-buses of the Imass nation. instead of killing you, they try to hug you and ask if you've seen their baseball.