[Saccian]

Otataral is not very effective against Elder magic, I believe it was mention in GoTM somewhere. Tool was still able to do everything he normally could, although if he could still pee, I'm sure he'd at least turn away in Lorns presence.

[Cedz]

Or maybe the several Assail Tyrants have sorcerous ability akin to what the Ceda unleashed at the end of Midnight Tides, as well as well trained and equiped armies the likes of lether or the malazans, with last but not least the aid of whatever nasty demonic or otherwordly creatures they choose to summon (see Edur).

So times that by however many Tyrants are located on Assail and you could have the making of a very inhospitable continent. Lets also not forget the fact that their armies are probably mass equiped with magically invested weapons that do more severe damage to the Imass, with skilled soldiers wielding them.....well you get the picture.

[Battalion]

Maybe the Assail Tyrants are human Ascendants who we haven't met yet.

[Abyss]

Y'know, considering L'oric - who is half Liosan, half elder god, but is weak enough to be taken down (mostly) by a human assassin stabbing him (twice) - could take out 2-3 Imass on his own HoC, assuming his original familiar was dead by then), maybe we're overestimating just how powerful they are without the advantage of surprise that they had against Heboric and co. in TB.

- Abyss, does not accept the 'he was just resting' arguement.

[Tiger_sword]

Prehaps the humans on assail are a part of the first empire (as they probably will have been at one point in their past) that have remembered the powers that they possessed.

What i'm saying is that when the first empire destroyed itself it sent humanity back to the dark ages for a few thousand years. What if this particular group managed to stay pretty much unharmed then progress? They could have fairly sufisticated tecnology and a deep understanding of magic.

Also what if because of the ritual these humans have become extremely powerful soletaken and d'ivers? Even a TI would have trouble with them. We also know that they hate them and try to destroy them (i.e. during the first soletaken ritual)

[Abyss]

Interesting points (tho the Imass didn't hate them, they were just trying to contain the insane shapeshifter outbreak, not wipe out the First Empire).

Given the sealed gates in MT and what Dessimbelakis accomplished with the trohlbaral, an intact First Empire colony would have some serious assets at their disposal.

What bugs me is Cotillion's point that it was "all a game" to the Tyrants. As in they are waging war on the Imass for amusement, not survival.

- Abyss, hates the game, not the playa.

[Jorram]

Personally, I find the concept of Assail's rulers having invented some invincible means of warfare the most plausible. It perfectly fits the idea of Imass not willing to retreat out of misguided war pride and the Tyrants "entertaining themselves (paraphrase mine)" slaughtering the Imass.

Remember that it is improbable that this continent is much bigger than what we know of 7C and TWO ENTIRE clans of Imass are being slaughtered there. I think it is impossible that humans could achieve this even with sheer body count. The ultra effective warfare device seems more plausible.

Except if they clone themselves or something

Whoever people on Assail are and whatever means they have to slaughter T'lan, they should obviously be a somewhat closed and hostile society, else don't you find it strange that Cotillion/ST never tried to enlist their help in the war against the CG? (at least Cotillion doesnt seem to nurture warmest feelings about Assail)

Btw, the Nameless Ones are obviously not only human. Apart from Spite who is draconean, the TBH prologue shows at least one Tiste Edur among them.. or was it a Tiste Andii, I can't remember clearly. Either the KE or KG priest was described as "otherworldly".

But I, too, think they have nothing to do with Assail and its rulers.

[Illuyankas]

Hell, I think there was a TL, a TA, a TE and at least one Imass-reminiscent Barghast too. Possibly even a T'lan Imass Bonecaster, depending on how good these mages were to wield four - wait, was there OP as well? - at least four Elder warrens.

[Jorram]

There's always the chance that the NO are given supernatural command over Elder Warrens, even though human, by means of serving the Azath.

....

but it's really slim ;D

[Abyss]

Topic drifting here, but we've seen enough examples - Corlo, QB, the Trygalle Guild - to accept that the Elder warrens are not completely inaccessible to humans.

Can't even recall even a thin link between Assail and the NOs/Azath being ref'd.

Everything we know, i think, amounts to it's named in some fashion after the Fokrul Assail, far away from Malaz, dangerous to Ascendents, there are suposedly human Tyrants there with access to magic weapons, and the Crimson Guard got their asses kicked pre-MT and now so are the Imass.

- Abyss, wonders if they have all inclusive beach resorts there.

[Illuyankas]

Accessed, yes. Used, like for actual effects, I don't think so.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Any evidence the First Human Empire had a presence on Assail? Not sure if the Ceda mentioned Assail when he was discussing the old Empire's maps.

[Illuyankas]

How would he know their current names, in the case of Seven Cities? How would we know their names from the First Empire, for that matter?

Although the reason behind the First Empire only knowing six out of seven continents being every ship going close enough to Assail to see land getting destroyed, forcing them to stop sending ships near that area or suffer sizable losses in capital and manpower, just doesn't seem right to me somehow.

[GingerBreadMan]

There is no invincible war strategy...and SE seriously seems to have done his research on battles so I doubt he would make up something like that...

The fact that they use swords seems to insinuate they are dominating with "old fashioned" warfare.

Speaking of the swords, if I remember correctly the number of magical weapons that can actually kill Imass is pretty limited...

Even if it is just a billion humans, that doesn't seem like a game. A human army would take huge casualties and any Tyrants wants to avoid having their army get destroyed as it weakens them.

Even if they don't care about the people getting massacred in the war, the more members of their military that die the more susceptible they are to an attack.

A very interesting note- Assail is referred to as having Tyrants, not just one. Tyrants do not get together and cooperate, that is totally against their nature as tyrants.

Perhaps Tyrants in this form are not what we are familiar with?

The whole situation makes no sense at all- Multiple tyrants, playing with the Imass, decimating them, and they are human?

I wonder what brought the Imass to Assail in the first place, as well as the Crimson Guard..

.Who would hire the Guard to go to Assail?

[Illuyankas]

GingerBreadMan;157675 said:

Speaking of the swords, if I remember correctly the number of magical weapons that can actually kill Imass is pretty limited...

Even if it is just a billion humans, that doesn't seem like a game. A human army would take huge casualties and any Tyrants wants to avoid having their army get destroyed as it weakens them.

Even if they don't care about the people getting massacred in the war, the more members of their military that die the more susceptible they are to an attack.

A very interesting note- Assail is referred to as having Tyrants, not just one. Tyrants do not get together and cooperate, that is totally against their nature as tyrants.

Perhaps Tyrants in this form are not what we are familiar with?

The whole situation makes no sense at all- Multiple tyrants, playing with the Imass, decimating them, and they are human?

I wonder what brought the Imass to Assail in the first place, as well as the Crimson Guard..

.Who would hire the Guard to go to Assail?

If there was just one Tyrant, then his forces would not be honed by years of intercinal conflict and be practically raw recruits with no battle experience. If there are many, then the casualties of each Tyrants forces would be split up between them as they attack the Imass, whether they teamed up temporarily or not. That's if they needed to in the first place.

And what if there's just one real ruler, who has several lieutenants with the title of Tyrant, ordering them to fight each other, say, to train this force (Herbert's Fremen come to mind, horrible enviroment and all), weed out the lesser commanders for a successor, fool the gods and ascendants outside Assail, or just for the hell of it?

[Tiger_sword]

"The enemy of my enemy is therefore my friend"

Prehaps they have created temporary alliances in order to rid the continent of 'outsiders' i.e. TI and (may be) the chrimson guard.

Or of course there is some subtle trick being played by a powerful group in order for it to seam as if there are many tyrants independnat of one another whereas they are actually part of the same group?

[Cause]

I still greatly favour the seguleh connection. I believ an army of seguleh would waste the Imass. Mok took out tool. And tool is supposed to be awesome. Of course in the same way its hard to understand SE when he discussess power its hard to get just how more powerfull tool is to other imass, In gotm he spoke about tool having the power to singly best raest? Madness? Tool, two dogs, three seuguleh and one ascendant sorceress destroyed armies of pannions.

But power in SEs world we have learnt is is impossible to understand. Fear trull and rhulad are masters of war. One forkrull assail that invicible power that humbles karsa smacked them all to the floor but got pissed on by two kenryllah demons.

But Imass it seems are definatly not the invicible power they are thought of. Icarium built a staircase out of their bones. The logross after seven cities marched on one jhaghut tyrant and come back with half their number.

[Morgoth]

mind you, there seems to be a variation of power between individuals of all races, so Serenity seemed much weaker than Calm who seemingly destroyed pretty much a whole clan of T'lann Imass.

As to the Seguleh theory. The problem there is that Seguleh seemingly have no reall spellcasters. Indeed, human spell casters generally have very little to say when meeting a bonecaster. A human army able to defeat the T'lann Imass must thus also have access to some incredible power in order to defeat or at least nullify the bonecasters of two whole clans.

[polishgenius]

Morgoth;157749 said:

Indeed, human spell casters generally have very little to say when meeting a bonecaster.

Kellanved? Tays? Dessimbelackis?

Iirc it was humans that brought down the CG.

There's no indication that human spellcasters have to be any less powerful than those of other races.

That said, I don't think the Seguleh connection fits for Assail either.

[Morgoth]

erm.. three bonecasters scared Hood away from confrontation.. Do you think a pre-ascended Kellanved, or tays could have done that?