[Battalion]

Once again, sorry if this idea has already been chewed over, and I'm sure it has, but I'm new to the website and have a few things that you guys can help me clear up.

One of them is this: In Memories of Ice, Lady Envy meets up with the battered Imass, Lanas Tog. The Imass goes on to tell Envy about the total distruction of her Kerluhm tribe, and the almost complete destruction of the Ifayle T'lan Imass. In all 32,034, Imass I think, slaughtered by humans, from the Continent of Assail.

So my question is: Is this the first and last time we have heard of this battle, or can any of you guys, smarter and more observant than me, tell me more?

If so, I'd be greatful for your input.

[Abyss]

It arises in TB - possibly when Apsalar tells Paran there are TWO continents lethal to ascendants - 7C is one and the implication (not stated) is that Assail is the other.

More clearly, when Cotillion is yelling at Ibra and Monok about no more aid from the TI forthcoming to protect the Throne, he says something like 'You decomposing morons are being chewed up and shat out on Assail and the Tyrants there consider it a game, like snakes and ladders only with swords and big honking rocks and stuff!'.

Okay, he may not have used the term 'honking'.

- Abyss, guilty of imperfect recall.

[Battalion]

So who are these guys? No sense that it might be Crimson Guard?

[Aptorian]

Nobody knows.

Personally I detest the notion that humans should suddenly be able to defeat T'lan Imass armies. It goes against the picture SE so far has painted of the undead killing machines.

Here's some theories I remember:

- They are decendants of the Forkrul Assail. Doesn't really make sense since Imass wouldnt call the enemy Humans unless they were.

- It's some ancient civilization of humans like Kallors empire or dissembilackis first empire. Meaning they have a superior knowledge of technology, magic and war, making them able to defend themselves against the TI.

- Jaghut Tyrants in disguiss as humans

- Its a whole continent of Seguleh-like bastards, like humans decend from Imass, the Seguleh herald from this place.

- Even though it doesnt make sense, it's the Crimson Guard with Kazz D'avore leading the asskicking.

What ever's going on over there I believe its left to ICE to tell the story, SE's left the continent in the hands of his co-creator.

[Bl1nder]

Aptorian;154840 said:

Nobody knows.

Personally I detest the notion that humans should suddenly be able to defeat T'lan Imass armies. It goes against the picture SE so far has painted of the undead killing machines.

Here's some theories I remember:

- They are decendants of the Forkrul Assail. Doesn't really make sense since Imass wouldnt call the enemy Humans unless they were.

- It's some ancient civilization of humans like Kallors empire or dissembilackis first empire. Meaning they have a superior knowledge of technology, magic and war, making them able to defend themselves against the TI.

- Jaghut Tyrants in disguiss as humans

- Its a whole continent of Seguleh-like bastards, like humans decend from Imass, the Seguleh herald from this place.

- Even though it doesnt make sense, it's the Crimson Guard with Kazz D'avore leading the asskicking.

What ever's going on over there I believe its left to ICE to tell the story, SE's left the continent in the hands of his co-creator.

In other words, we have to wait qutie a while before we know whats happening. Anyway perhaps the guard are loosing now, Iron Bars and the lot in Lether, means perhaps they were crushed, or something, dunno jsut a thought

[Blend]

Okay, I may be talking out my arse here, but here goes...

Cutter was talking to whoever it was that mentioned that he was a descendant of the 'Tyrants' of Darujhistan, and that the Tyrants should still be leading Darujhistan, but as far as we've seen / been shown, Darujhistan was not being ruled by Tyrants. Perhaps these said tyrants went away, to Assail perhaps, to either expand their territory, or because they had been sent overthrown and exiled by the members of the Cabal, or the High Council or whatever.

Just an idea, at any rate. I'm almost positive I've got some of my facts messed up, but I'm sure Abyss or Imperial Historian, or someone else, will sweep behind me and pick out all the reasons why this can't be.

[Battalion]

What about the Nameless Ones? Aren't they kind of all powerful humans or am I way wrong with that?

I find the idea of a group of kick ass humans exiting. They'd be a match for the Malazans and indeed for the Edur. Any one who can wipe out thirty thousand undead super-warriors can give any one pause for thought. Or then again, maybe they ain't that though, there's just millions of them, like the armies in Terry Goodkind's books.

[Aptorian]

Blend - Quickly finding an old thread I started about Crokus and the Tyrant of Darujistan.
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...rant+darujistan
It seems highly unlikely that the tyrants of Assail(plural) are connected to the tyrant of Darujistan(singular)

We dont know that Crokus is related to an old royal line of Darujistan. We can merely suspect from the hints dropped about him in GotM, of his orphan childhood, and what could be deducted from the Soldier of Deaths rambling, that the ultimate reason to why the poor reader has to listen to him stumble pissy and moaning through 4 books is related to Darujistans future, the cabal, the seguleh and a tyrant.

(I wont add to the confusion by mentioning the three "magetyrants" the perish talk about)

Bat - The Nameless Ones are sort of the Wild Card of the Story. I doubt even SE's sure of what the hell they are up to.

Are they incredibly powerfull since they've existed since, possibly before, the Dawn of man?
Are they even a primarily human orginisation or do they consist of many races amon them elder?
Do they control the Azath?
Do they merely protect it?
Do they contain its power so its not used?
Do they guard against the Azath waking?
Are they now out to destroy the Azath because its weakening?
Is their goal to aid or fight the CG and the Edur by sending Iccy to Lether?

One thing we can assume is that their numbers arent that great, at least on the known continents (known by ST), since Shadow Throne went to great lengths to wipe them out when he was emperor. I also enjoy his term for the cult, Nameless Idiots.

[Battalion]

Yeah, I like that too. Also when he calls Paran the Idiot Master of the Deck. Funny!

I think the Namless ones are made up of a multitude of races, I have no bases for this, except Mappo Runt. He's A Trell, and he's an agent for them. Also Spite was a Nameless Idiot, and she's Soletaken. But I still have the feeling they are a human organisation -- I can't back this up -- and so maybe it could be them on Assail. They'd have the power.

Just going off topic, any one else think that Mappo's pack is one of the best things in the series. What is it? A warren or something?

[Aptorian]

I actually think Mappos pack is one of the most awfull things of the series, because it's a sort of cartoonish creation of the author thats not properly explained. It might be a Jaghut trick since the brokeback Jaghut in HoC has trunk that resembles it a bit.

If such a bag was possible to create, which seems to negate the weight of the things in it, imagine the logistic possibilities. You could fill it with food, armor, weapons, gold, all the things needed for an army, hell why not ballistas and a fort. Just stuff the bag and move it to the place you need it and pop open the magical pinata of goodies.

Maybe I'm just being a cynic

[Blend]

@Apt - I stand corrected, as I figured I would.

And on another note, wasn't it explained somewhere that there's a piece of the shattered Kurald Emurhlan in the bag, or alternately, that it is in fact a small warren, and that's why he can store so much? Or is that also my imagination?

[Dark Mac]

I'm pretty sure that someone mentioned that the bag had a warren inside it. Which really doesn't make it any more broken than warrens in general.

[Dolorous Menhir]

A good suggestion made elsewhere on the board is that while the Tyrants of Assail may be human (and I trust Cotillion on this point), it does not follow that they lead armies of humans.

Kellanved was a human who commanded an army of another the race. Perhaps the means to control Jaghut or Forkrul Assail in some way also exist.

As for a link to the Darujhistan Tyrants - there is a crucial difference. The Tyrants of Darujhistan were a line of kings, so pluralised because there were a succession over time. The Tyrants of Assail are pluralised because there are several of them at the same time. This suggests a different nature from the Darujhistan dynasty, but I wouldn't rule out a link because we just don't know enough.

The Tyrants are not the Crimson Guard. The CGrd are a new organisation originating in Quon Tali within the lifespan of Emperor Kellanved. The Tyrants are a group of unknown and extremely powerful humans on a continent so out of touch with the rest of the world that most people don't even know it exists. I don't see any potential for a link there.

We did see, in MT, that the Crimson Guard had made an expedition to Assail, and Iron Bars' company was the remnant of that. So we know that the CGrd have gone there, and took a beating doing so. Not consistent with what we know of the Tyrants.

It can't be the Nameless Ones. Everything we know about them argues against the idea that they would openly wield power and wage continent wide battles with armies of T'lan Imass. I appreciate that our lack of knowledge about the Tyrants is frustrating, but we're not going to find an explanation for them among the groups we've already been introduced too. They're something new, and the author just hasn't told us about them.

[Battalion]

Quote

I actually think Mappos pack is one of the most awfull things of the series, because it's a sort of cartoonish creation of the author thats not properly explained.

Gimme a break, Apt! This bag's got it going on. You can even stuff it into itself to make it smaller! I don't see how it's any worse than, say, Dragniper, itself a realm.

The final scene of the series? Mappo vs Crippled God, he opens his back pack, and out flies a fleet of Sky Keeps and a shed load of dragons. No?
Fair enough, but I like it.

[Abyss]

Actually Blend, i still like the Tyrant of Darujhistan -> Tyrants of Assail link... here's why...

(and realize i'm linking a series of facts by pure speculation, so take all with a truckload of salt)

Mok, a Seguleh 3rd, beat Tool, an Imass First Sword. (finale in MoI)
The Seguleh were originally created by the Tyrant of Darujhistan. (Seguleh 2nd's rant to Cutter in TB)
The Tyrants of Assail apparently have a whole continent to work with.
Whatever forces the Assail Tyrants are using are making minced rot out of the Imass armies engaged there.
So if both Tyrant entities are linked, then Assail could, in theory, have a whole continent of Seguleh-types (China, by example, has about a billion people, and it's just a large chunk of a continent).
It was stated in either DG or GotM that in the course of the original 7C campaign, some Imass were taken out when 7C rebels inflicted enough damage on them, in a crush of desperate soldiers all piling on sort of way..

So... Thirty thousand Tlan Imass versus even a few score million seguleh-types (even at the lowest ranks) whose lives are worthless to their Tyrant rulers = some very dead undead Imass.


- Abyss, wants Mappo's sack the next time he moves.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

Aptorian;154866 said:

I actually think Mappos pack is one of the most awfull things of the series, because it's a sort of cartoonish creation of the author thats not properly explained. It might be a Jaghut trick since the brokeback Jaghut in HoC has trunk that resembles it a bit.

If such a bag was possible to create, which seems to negate the weight of the things in it, imagine the logistic possibilities. You could fill it with food, armor, weapons, gold, all the things needed for an army, hell why not ballistas and a fort. Just stuff the bag and move it to the place you need it and pop open the magical pinata of goodies.

Maybe I'm just being a cynic

Really? I thought the explanation of the pack as containing a warren was quite clever; as it was supposed to have failed by now, I had deduced that it was through the implications of traveling with Icarium that the pack still worked as intended.

[Mael]

Quote

Really? I thought the explanation of the pack as containing a warren was quite clever; as it was supposed to have failed by now, I had deduced that it was through the implications of traveling with Icarium that the pack still worked as intended.

heh, i figured that the occasional person he stuffed into it was what kept it going. Maybe its a small fragment of KE or something.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Are the Trell not descended from TTT blood?

Perhaps Mappo has his own personal warren going, in the same style as Karsa but on a smaller scale.

[Illuyankas]

You suggesting that this potential mini-warren of Mappo's recharges the bag's warren?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Yes, I am.