[Sinisdar Toste]

Onrack the breakable;150928 said:

The more I read these Malazan books, the more it seems there is little real stragegy or much planning at all. Alot of strutting around and bullshatting. No one tells any anything because the ideas are so stupid (like Quick Bens) the whole army would walk off in disgust and take up fishing or something. The Black Company books were like this, but at least they usually had some decent planning and tactics where at least the command knew what was going on. Even David Eddings books have more tactics and stragegy than what we've seen so far.

The exception being Tavore. There was planning beyond just "charge in and die gloriously and stupidly".

I was thinking Lostara was another possible stratagist (as opposed to skulker/conniver/bullshatter) but it seems she may wind up more as an aide to Tavore. Ruthan Guud and Madan Tul Rada are the only other officers mentioned besides Kindly and Sort but we know nothing about them and haven't seen either give a single order so far.

no planning or strategy? did you read reapers gale? MT? DEADHOUSE GATES!!!??? explain the how the chain of dogs isn't an amazing example of brilliant strategy and tactics

[Raraku]

Oh i totally agree with Sinisdar Toste
The Chain of dogs was an epic show of tactics
Coltine was drilling the 7th into shape everyday for that strategy and pulled it off like clock work
Even the Bonehunters at Y'Ghatan showed good tactics but well Leoman made it into a suicide mission wasnt their fault
Also in HOC Tavore s plan to attack Leoman sniping troupes with Dassems marine strategy was good

[Lost Marine]

Cocoreturns;295647 said:

yeah, look up the siege of Badajoz for an example of wellington doing it too early.

Of course, Sharpe saved the day there and carried the breach

Sharpe always saved the day.

But Badajoz is a good example, Wellington was if not the best, then definately one of the top five strategists of all time and even he made mistakes. Judging Dujek on the tiny part of his career you see is fallacious at best.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Raraku;295665 said:

Oh i totally agree with Sinisdar Toste
The Chain of dogs was an epic show of tactics
Coltine was drilling the 7th into shape everyday for that strategy and pulled it off like clock work
Even the Bonehunters at Y'Ghatan showed good tactics but well Leoman made it into a suicide mission wasnt their fault
Also in HOC Tavore s plan to attack Leoman sniping troupes with Dassems marine strategy was good

That's one of the reasons Coltaine was fuckin' awsim.

On Dujek/Coral:

Feasibly, the only thing Dujek could've done, if he wanted little or no casualties, was to retreat. Wait for Brood's Host. Mind you, the condors would have caught them, but at least there'd be no KCCM or Pannions...

[Abyss]

Ain said:

...at least there'd be no KCCM or Pannions...

Not really. The lizards could have just pursued once the Seer knew Dujek's army was there and pulling out.

Iirc, there were two reasons for not waiting for the rest of the alliance...

1. Breach of trust between Brood's forces and Dujek's over the 'we're facing the Cg/we're being manipulated by Laseen' thing; and,

2. Send in a Malazan advance force (thus sparing the bulk of their army AND their allies) to take any ambush and leave the way open for the remaining forces.

The offshoot was this cause Brood's forces to speed up and get to Coral faster BECAUSE they didn't trust the Malazans, Dujek's and WJ's, who got there ahead of them. Otherwise, Brood's forces would have arrived too late to even make a small difference (which basically amounts to Korlat and Orfantal taking out the condors and the Motts taking out the Pannion Mages).

Dujek didn't know just what he was getting into - it was a noble gesture and militarily logical one because if he hadn't done it, a few things could have happened:

- the alliance would have split and possibly even started fighting amongst itself;

- the Pannions would have been firmly entrenched and even with the full armies, the Pannions would have had the hillside position prepared to basically make a seige near suicide for either or both of the alliance armies.


Anyhow, that's how i rationalize it.

- Abyss, can also walk and chew gum...

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Abyss;296477 said:

Not really. The lizards could have just pursued once the Seer knew Dujek's army was there and pulling out.

Iirc, there were two reasons for not waiting for the rest of the alliance...

1. Breach of trust between Brood's forces and Dujek's over the 'we're facing the Cg/we're being manipulated by Laseen' thing; and,

2. Send in a Malazan advance force (thus sparing the bulk of their army AND their allies) to take any ambush and leave the way open for the remaining forces.

The offshoot was this cause Brood's forces to speed up and get to Coral faster BECAUSE they didn't trust the Malazans, Dujek's and WJ's, who got there ahead of them. Otherwise, Brood's forces would have arrived too late to even make a small difference (which basically amounts to Korlat and Orfantal taking out the condors and the Motts taking out the Pannion Mages).

Dujek didn't know just what he was getting into - it was a noble gesture and militarily logical one because if he hadn't done it, a few things could have happened:

- the alliance would have split and possibly even started fighting amongst itself;

- the Pannions would have been firmly entrenched and even with the full armies, the Pannions would have had the hillside position prepared to basically make a seige near suicide for either or both of the alliance armies.


Anyhow, that's how i rationalize it.

- Abyss, can also walk and chew gum...

That reminds me: the hill was held by 6000 of Onearm's Host. In the end, only 3000 were left. Shouldn't the other 4000 still be alive or did they arrive to the fight just late?

[Aptorian]

I guess they make up most of Parans Host now.

[Ayrin]

Aptorian;295146 said:

I don't actually think they went into hiding? Where do you have this from? I know they are sworn to Hood but A LOT of soldiers were probably sworn before the cult was destroyed.

Weren't they sworn to Fener?

Is it specified somewhere Gesler and Stormy were in hiding? Otherwise they had probably "just" been busted down the ranks as everyone else...
Not as if they are trying that hard to hide their old titles, nor have they even changed their names.

[Aptorian]

Yes, they were sworn to Fener, someone else pointed it out. I just didn't bother to edit it.

[Mentalist]

They were the "Boar Company"--its high officers, back in the First Malazan Army
following the rise of the empire, as it adopted a "no patrons" policy, the company was disbanded, its members tossed around all over the place. Some of the heavies from the new squads we meet in RG (the ones with the dal Honese mages), were originally part of the company, as far as I understood.

[Ayrin]

Aptorian;297211 said:

Yes, they were sworn to Fener, someone else pointed it out. I just didn't bother to edit it.

Yes, I see... I must have missed that there was one more page or something... sorry

[Warqueen]

Aptorian;295146 said:

I don't actually think they went into hiding? Where do you have this from? I know they are sworn to Hood but A LOT of soldiers were probably sworn before the cult was destroyed.

I think the reason to why they were in that backwater town was that they had gotten themselves busted down for not taking crap from their officers and also because they tried to stay out of any real fighting.

I don't remember exactly which book...when someone recognizes them one of them says they were on the coast hiding out after Laseen took over...I'm not so sure they got busted down as just took a lesser rank....they don't rally explain that part..

[Mentalist]

must be DG and Duiker...

[Sinisdar Toste]

HIIIYAAA!

DG pg 201 "Seems Fener's already cocked an eye in our direction, Mage. We're Boar Company, of the disbanded First Army. Before Laseen crushed the cult that is. Now we're just marines attached to a miserable Coastal Guard."

this from stormy, so i think we can assume laseen put them on the coast guard, maybe hoping that they would "drown"

[Kurt Montandon]

Ain said:

That reminds me: the hill was held by 6000 of Onearm's Host. In the end, only 3000 were left. Shouldn't the other 4000 still be alive or did they arrive to the fight just late?

Er, the 6000 of Onearm's went in to Coral. The other 4000, under Whiskeyjack, got chopped up on the plains while fighting KCCM.

I believe the 3000 survivors were from both sections combined. And I'm not sure how many of those are in Paran's Host - I think a lot were dropped off in various Seven Cities cities as garrisons, and a bunch were lost confronting the Grey Goddess.

I really do think that Paran's Host has a decent number of veterans, no just from Coral but from the Genabackis and Seven Cities campaigns. But I don't think that's particularly important to the force's overall quality, which is likely mediocre (at least by Malazan standards).

[Ain't_It_Just_]

kmmontandon;297591 said:

Er, the 6000 of Onearm's went in to Coral. The other 4000, under Whiskeyjack, got chopped up on the plains while fighting KCCM.

I believe the 3000 survivors were from both sections combined. And I'm not sure how many of those are in Paran's Host - I think a lot were dropped off in various Seven Cities cities as garrisons, and a bunch were lost confronting the Grey Goddess.

I really do think that Paran's Host has a decent number of veterans, no just from Coral but from the Genabackis and Seven Cities campaigns. But I don't think that's particularly important to the force's overall quality, which is likely mediocre (at least by Malazan standards).

Still, it makes me very sadface.

[Aptorian]

kmmontandon;297591 said:

Er, the 6000 of Onearm's went in to Coral. The other 4000, under Whiskeyjack, got chopped up on the plains while fighting KCCM.

I believe the 3000 survivors were from both sections combined. And I'm not sure how many of those are in Paran's Host - I think a lot were dropped off in various Seven Cities cities as garrisons, and a bunch were lost confronting the Grey Goddess.

I really do think that Paran's Host has a decent number of veterans, no just from Coral but from the Genabackis and Seven Cities campaigns. But I don't think that's particularly important to the force's overall quality, which is likely mediocre (at least by Malazan standards).

This is incorrect, allthough brittle, The Host along with the 14th has been described as the last great army of the empire. The Hosts disappearance is a great blow against the empires strength in 7C.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;297859 said:

This is incorrect, allthough brittle, The Host along with the 14th has been described as the last great army of the empire. The Hosts disappearance is a great blow against the empires strength in 7C.

Yeah, broken or not, 14,000 soldiers isn't to be sneezed at.... Remember, Mathok and his forces added themselves to the army.

I'm glad the Host is still alive, it means they're gonna do something... well, I hope. I can't see anything happening on QT or wherever they're going that could kill them all off.

[lasombra]

only reason onearms host got mualed @ corel was coz of sorcery.They lost all high mages @ pale and others mage cadre's. all they have now is squad mages.

Dont forget the condors