[Onos]

By Cannae hannibals elephants were already dead. (those few that even made it through the alps)
http://www.roman-emp...rmy/cannae.html

Also not sure the Pormqual 'battle' really qualifies as a battle.... so not really that similar to Cannae, other than the malazan troops being surrounded.

[wishbone]

BridgeBurner;153223 said:

You're forgetting one thing: Dujek could not afford to dig in and wait for the other contingencies to arrive, simply because the Kell Hunters and the Condors wouldn't leave him alone long enough. No able defensive commander would leave the chance of decimating part of the other army that easily pass by, especially knowing what was coming days after this group.

So instead of waiting for the Pannion troops to start decimating his remaining forces, he did what a good tactician would do in my opinion, by taking the fight to closer quarters.

I don't think choosing the battleground and taking the initiative is a tactical error in this case, really. It seems more like Dujek decided that if the Malazans would have to die (and don't forget this army has been feeling defeated in GotM already), they'd take as many enemies with them as they could manage...

On a more general note, Dujek won his reputation in the years before GotM even started, by conquering half a continent.

I actually didnt suggest digging in was an option for Dujek - I was saying that withdrawal of his forces away from the range of the defenders at Coral and preferrably towards the advancing armies was tactically the best option.

Consider this: Dujek had the time & resources to fly his 5-6 thousand soldiers INTO Coral. The Condors were asleep around the keep and the KCCM were doing whatever undead KCCM do in their spare time... the condors only took off when they were attacked by the bridgeburners, therefore the notion that they were unable to withdraw because of the condors becomes non-existent. If Dujek had the resources to fly there, he could have just as easily flown away towards WJ/Brood etc as well in my opinion.

The notion that Dujek had a better chance of surviving by attacking the city seems a bit contradictory. By attacking, you are immediately putting yourself in greater danger of higher casualties than if you were defending or withdrawing. (note I make the distinction between a withdrawal & a full scale retreat which would definitely cause higher casualties) Simply because attacking is inherently the riskier action.

Historically, there was always a thought that an attacking force also needed superior numbers in order to succeed in taking a well defended target - something in the order of 3:1 in the attackers favour or even higher. Dujek was definitely outnumbered going into Coral so his chance of succeeding AND minimising his casualties would have been astronomical in my opinion.

Finally, I take it back to what his mission was - to take out the Seer. My main issue with what Dujek did was the fact that by ordering an attack on Coral all he would have accomplished (had he succeeded at all) was to bring an end to the Seer a few days earlier than if the rest of the army had gone in together... Would an extra couple of days been that much of a difference? Would it have been worth the loss of his half of the Host? To me it wasnt.

But as mentioned before, this is all just hypotheticals on how real military tactics would have been applied at Coral. Nothing more and definitely not trying to read too much into Dujek's ability...

Then again, maybe Dujek had a bit of a reckless streak in him. Didnt he also lead the assault into Poliel's temple to try and stop the plague in 7 cities? So maybe it was just in Dujek's nature to lead heroic charges into almost certain death...

[wishbone]

BridgeBurner;153223 said:

... It seems more like Dujek decided that if the Malazans would have to die (and don't forget this army has been feeling defeated in GotM already), they'd take as many enemies with them as they could manage...

Sorry, forgot to address this point:

I dont believe that the Host was that beaten down in spirit until they saw WJ killed.

Their actions during siege of Capustan in knocking over the Pannion forces around the city showed that they were still a very effective fighting force.

[Where is Dassem Ultor?]

I believe the hype surrounding Dujek, and furthermore I don't understand how anybody could NOT respect him. I think that he did what he had to do and because he was never afraid to do it, he was admired. I'm more upset about his exit in the Bonehunters than anything.

[nzoreo]

i reckon his exit in BH was quite a loss but also very fitting, from what you read about him after WJ died, he just wasnt the same and i dont think he would have ever been up to his best i think he needed to die so that things could change for the better

[Whelp]

amphibian;153182 said:

Hannibal had elephants, man. Is it not written that one elephant is like ten thousand people? All hungry and big and grey?

No - his main asset was the high-quality Numidian (sp?) cavalry, which he exploited perfectly.

[Blend]

Just as an aside...

Leadership is defined as the ability to lead troops, to inspire them to follow you into any direction you want them to go into, to have your troops/followers respect you or almost worship you.

Leadership is NOT defined as someone who has to know anything tactically.

Dujek was a great leader, he had an army of 10K soldiers go "rebel" with him. That means that 10K people were inspired enough by his amazing leadership to give up the Empire and follow him on whatever path he chose for them.

Even so, given everything that everyone has pointed out, and given all the political things that Dujek had to deal with on the aside, what he did in Coral was absolutely necessary. He did everything he could with what was given him. He did the impossible, and despite the casualties, that was still what was necessary. He was a fantastic leader, and a pretty good tactician to boot.

Also, wasn't the reason WJ and Dujek had to be in Coral before everyone else because Laseen wanted to assure that the "allies" would not take over Coral. It was important that Coral fall under Malazan rule, and if Brood and company had been the first ones in, or had been part of the initial strike, it would have been much more difficult to wrest the city away from him. As it stands, the Malazans did what was necessary to get in there first, and assure that they could take control of the city afterwards, thus bringing it under Malazan rule.

[Onos]

Agreed that ATTACKING something requires more resources (manpower) than defending. BUT he was flown into Coral, so that he could DEFEND the buildings. (he did mention trying to get as far as the Seer, but this was only a hollow boast) Now the Pannion lines have been breached and all hell has broken loose behind/around them. (munitions/crossbows/troops where there should be no troops) Street to street fighting can be some of the most deadly and highly contested.

[Dolmen 2.0]

Blend;153464 said:

...wasn't the reason WJ and Dujek had to be in Coral before everyone else because Laseen wanted to assure that the "allies" would not take over Coral. It was important that Coral fall under Malazan rule, and if Brood and company had been the first ones in, or had been part of the initial strike, it would have been much more difficult to wrest the city away from him. As it stands, the Malazans did what was necessary to get in there first, and assure that they could take control of the city afterwards, thus bringing it under Malazan rule.

I'm not sure the malazans could have stopped the allied forces moving with them had those allies decided to keep coral for themselves. brood was magnanimous in allowing the move as it didn't really clash with his immediate interests.

Malazans are risk takers, Broods faction was not. That said I think Dujek made some seriously dubious decisions in regards to his command but as stated before he really had his arms twisted by the inferior strategy the empress made him employ. I'm pretty sure that dujeks finest hours were back when he had no strings attached to him. In the books there has really only been one commander with complete free reign of his troops and that would be anomander rake. If anyones tactical motives and leadership should be questioned its his...

[Whelp]

Maybe these also influenced Erikson's Coltaine:
Xenophon, and The Ten Thousand

[Onrack the breakable]

In the time waiting for RG, I been rereading other books of interest. Its odd that as for military leadership and such, even in big battles some authors like Tad Williams show believable battles while the combat is quite chaotic and focused on the individual, not even the company or squad level.

For his part, SE presented a realistic view of military command perspective especially from Lt. Pores. Something like, "most soldiers will face death with nary a grimace, as long as they have a chance to fight, and maybe even fight their way out. They really only feel helpless when you put them on a boat in the sea that cannot be fought with swords, spears, or fists..." Telling the soldiers at least a general idea of what they are doing is necessary. And ironically often the enemy know the leading generals plans in more detail and accuracy than the leaders own troops. That is a recipe for disaster IMHO. Like Bottel somewhat said, "no one tells anyone anything then when something goes wrong [and in war something almost always goes wrong] they wonder why it all falls apart and everyone is going in some direction at random."

It was a big thing in the Black Company books. In particular, I remember a series of three books (near the end) where the reader and common soldiers had almost no idea at all of what was going on. Needless to say, it ended with the so clever, cunning, conniving, and secretive Captain taking a bath in molten lead or burning pitch along with a large part of her command. Of course Cook's Black Company books were inspired by real world events of the Vietnam War and its collosal stupidity (which Bush has kindly repeated IMHO).

To sum up I would like to quote from Tad Williams Shadowmarch (which I think is one of his best books to date).

"...He fought the Autarch and lost--well, in truth he fought against this Autarch's father. Then, later, he fought your own father and lost....I do not know how much use his advice would be--almost anyone can advise on how to lose battles."

HAHA.

[Tehol Beddict]

Onrack the breakable;150263 said:

1. Outmanuvered and out powered and dead is the very definition of bad leadership. How can you question this?

2. Its been said. On the other hand, what we've actually seen of Onearm is/was pathetic.

3. They are dead so that sort of shows what they know, right?

At the Battle of Coral, the Host and it's allies WERE outmanoevered and outgunned, but I think it's understandable. For one, they couldn't know the amount of forces the enemy had due to the fact the Seer had a fucking army of demonic condors. Therefore, they were walking into a trap to begin with. Second, the Seer had K'Chain Che'Malle in his army, which, as we've all seen, even the T'lan Imass had some problems with. Finally, the Host and it's allies were in a sorry state; there were betrayals (Kallor), and, prior to the battle, Whiskeyjack was pwned, as well as losing a huge chunk of the Moranth (the Gold and whatever other spectrums of their rainbow society). Also, in the first stages of the Genabackan Campaign, Dujek took like half the continent, and only failed at Darujhistan because the gas was too dangerous and Raest was a little too effective. Cheers:D:p

[Abyss]

TB raises a good point. Pale may be an arguable point, and Blackdog/Mott is repeatedly ref'd as a disaster, but even so, opposed by all of Brood's forces (including frikkin Andii, dragons, and CGrd Avowed) Dujek DID manage to take all of Genabackis north of Darujhistan.


Now we have Tavore - debateable her level of success but she hasn't lost one yet. Except that ghosts did most of the fighting in Raraku and Yghatan was a suicide attemp and Malaz Island was a holding action she didn't even command.... but hey, Leth worked out pretty well. She sent her Marines in to distract the enemy, then landed an entire army at the capital.

- Abyss, always wary of dangerous gas... mmmm, chilli...

[Warqueen]

you have left out adjunct Gesler and fist Stormy...who went in to hiding when Laseen took over..

[Aptorian]

I don't actually think they went into hiding? Where do you have this from? I know they are sworn to Hood but A LOT of soldiers were probably sworn before the cult was destroyed.

I think the reason to why they were in that backwater town was that they had gotten themselves busted down for not taking crap from their officers and also because they tried to stay out of any real fighting.

[Kurt Montandon]

Aptorian;295146 said:

I don't actually think they went into hiding? Where do you have this from? I know they are sworn to Hood but A LOT of soldiers were probably sworn before the cult was destroyed.

Fener, not Hood.

And not so much "hiding" as "keeping their heads down after the cults were outlawed."

[Tarr]

They were a captain and an adjunct. Like WJ Gesler was demoted to sergeant and stormy his corporal, unless after being demoted to the rank and file Gesler got promoted somehow and made Stormy his corporal.

[Mentalist]

.. hmmm.. I believe it was "Adjutant" [/nitpick]
As for being busted down--you got it right the first time, they mention about how "Gesler could get busted down even more" if he did something, but don't remember the context

[Lost Marine]

So back to the Dujek and Corel thing. The thing you have to remember is that he and his portion of the army were essentially the forlorn hope. A forlorn hope is a group of soldiers who are sent in first to spring the enemies traps and open the way for follow on forces to enter a city. They are also expected to die pretty spectacularly, hence the name.

Dujek did what he had to do by taking the trenches, unfortunately these turned out to be an untenable postion. Since he had no intelligence about what was inside the city how exactly was he supposed to know the condors were sleeping? Or for how long they were sleeping?

The last thing any competent general will do is retreat across open terrain when the enemy has control of the air. If you want to see a fine example of what would have happened to the Host if they retreated google Highway of Death and see what the American Air Force did to the Iraqis when they retreated through the open in the first Gulf War.

Dujek looked at the choices he had an he decided that the best thing to do was enter the city. There his troops would have better cover and he also had the chance to create havoc and possibly open a gate for the follow on forces.

Even Wellington was known to occasionally assault a city too early every now and again.

[Coco with marshmallows]

yeah, look up the siege of Badajoz for an example of wellington doing it too early.

Of course, Sharpe saved the day there and carried the breach